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Wednesday, June 11, 2008

On the question of Gina's demise

by Renegade

As some of you may know, I have spent the past few days separating fact from fiction, opinion and wishful thinking about Gina's "death". Contrary to popular claims, I am not in denial, and I have acknowledged from the start that Gina's death is ultimately up to the Creator's decision, not what the videos say.

Tuesday's video of course dealt a serious blow to the "Gina is/could be alive" faction, and, given that I know that the Creators are not above......"bending" probability in order to make the plot "work", and that Sarah's statement today was rather clear, I cannot help but admit that the probability they killed Gina off is exceptionally high right now.

And yet, I assume some of you would like to keep their hopes up, and I am here to give you a logical reason to do that.


The entire "Gina is dead" claim is based on five assumptions or pieces of "evidence":

  1. Jonas did not feel a pulse because Gina had no pulse.

  2. Gina's footage proves Gina is dead.

  3. Salinas said he had footage of someone dying, and he had Gina's footage.

  4. Emma made a farewell video.

  5. Sarah said Gina is dead.

I will now go through this "evidence" in reverse Order, ultimately showing that there is a 50% chance Gina is alive, that the decision of what is true is purely up to what way the Creators want to go, and that Gina's "death" can easily be reversed later.

This post is written with the evidence as of Tuesday, June 10th, after "A Woman Scorned" was released. If any future video shows Gina's body evidentially dead, or something similar, all of this is moot.

5. Sarah said Gina is dead.

This claim, in itself, is obviously true. Sarah did say Gina is dead. The question to ask is, on what basis does Sarah make that claim?
Ponder for a second where Sarah was when all hell broke loose: In the closet with Daniel, right next to the exit.
For one, it would have been rather stupid of her to run towards the gunshots once the fight started, especially after the others yelled "everybody out". For two, since we saw the others run out of the living room, it is likely we would also have seen Sarah enter the room, had she done so. It is much more likely that she heard the screams to run, and simply left the house through the door that was right next to her.
What does that mean?
It means that Sarah never actually saw Gina's body, or checked if she was dead; her assumption Gina is dead is purely based on the same "evidence" we have: Jonas's statement that he didn't feel a pulse, and Gina's footage. Which, in turn, means if these two pieces of evidence turn out to be false, Sarah's statement is void.

4. Emma made a farewell video.

Once again, in itself, this is true. Interestingly, however, even though Emma actually saw Gina's body, she never explicitly claimed her to be dead. Even if she did, though, the argumentation is basically the same as above - while Emma was probably looking at Gina's lifeless body, she did not feel Gina's pulse herself - she is relying entirely on Jonas's statement. She also did not note seeing wounds or blood, making her farewell nothing but another opinion on the same evidence - Jonas's statement that he didn't feel a pulse, and Gina's footage. Which, in turn, means if these two pieces of evidence turn out to be false, Emma's farewell was premature.

3. Salinas said he had footage of someone dying, and he had Gina's footage.

I will not go into details of why this scene is either indication of a giant conspiracy, or simply plotholetastic, but even if we assume Salinas was talking about the Gina footage - if he had Gina's dead body, he would have shown Gina's dead body. Since he didn't, it is likely he's basing his assumption that Gina is dead purely on the very same footage we saw.
What does that mean?
It means if the footage turns out to be false evidence, Salinas is basing his statement on false evidence, thus making it void.

2. Gina's footage proves Gina is dead.

This is wrong, plain and simply. There have been theories that Gina has wounds on her back, or was poisoned, or something similar that would not show in the picture we saw. In that case, Gina's footage would show Gina's death, but it would not prove it. That distinction may sound like nitpicking, but it is an important one - we cannot see any wounds or blood in the footage of Gina lifeless on the ground - which means she could very well simply be unconscious.
Gina's footage may be documentation of her death, but given that we do not see anything that definitely proves her to be dead, neither blood nor wounds, Gina's footage is not evidence of her death.
What does that mean?
It means the footage is no evidence, it means "evidence" #3 (Salinas) fails, because the prerequisite is not true, and it means half of the basis for "evidence" #4 and #5 (Emma and Sarah) is false.

Where are we now?

Claim #2 is false, automatically falsefying #3.
That leaves only #1, #4 and #5 as "evidence" that Gina is dead.
Since half of the basis of #4 and #5 was eliminated, that means #4 and #5 rely entirely on claim #1 to be true.
If claim #1 is false, #4 and #5 are baseless, rendering them worthless as evidence.
In other words: If claim #1 is false, there is no "evidence" left that supports the claim that Gina is dead.

1. Jonas did not feel a pulse because Gina had no pulse.

Here we are at the crucial last point, the one deciding it all - is Gina dead or not?
And the truthful answer is: Only the Creators know.
To form your own opinion, you have to ponder the following question: Are you sure that Jonas correctly took Gina's pulse?
He himself said "I don't feel a pulse", not "She has no pulse".
He was also under extrem pressure because he was in the middle of an attack, emotionally hit because a good friend might be dead, and his attention was diverted because he had to watch out for incoming enemies, to not get killed himself. Several people also criticized the technique he used to feel for Emma's pulse.


#1 Is a question of opinion
#2 fails as evidence, because it proves nothing.
#3 fails as evidence, because it relies on #2 to be true
#4 fails if #1 fails.
#5 fails if #1 fails.

If you believe Jonas still managed to take Gina's pulse correctly despite the circumstances, then Gina is dead to you.
If you believe it is possible that Jonas did not feel a pulse even though there was one, simply because the situation did not give him the time and rest to fully concentrate on the task at hand, then there is a 50% chance that Gina is still alive - either he's wrong, or he's not.

I know some will claim I'm "in denial" and "grasping for straws", but I have yet to see someone prove that Gina is actually dead. If someone wants to make a case for her death, I'll gladly read it, but an opinion alone does not change the facts. If you can conclusively prove Gina is dead, do so. If you can disprove my points, do so. If you can't do either, don't claim I'm wrong.

I acknowledge there's a high probability the Creators declared Gina dead. I am not in denial about that. But that does not change the fact that, so far, we have not seen conclusive evidence of her death, and that the Creators could easily revert this decision by simply claiming Jonas is human, and made a mistake.

This entire discussion boils down to a simple question: How brilliant do you believe the writers of LG15 to be?
If you believe they are clumsy and straightforward, then there's no way you can believe they would create such a complex plot. It is far more likely the production crew simply failed at making it clear in Gina's footage that she's dead, and the situation was never meant to be ambiguous.
If you believe the writers could think in such a way, then you can believe it's not a coincidence there was no obvious sign of death on Gina, and you can believe it's not a coincidence that the only explicit statement so far came from someone who wasn't even in the room.

If you want to hope, there's nothing speaking against it - so far. If you don't want to hope, at least acknowledge nothing is definite until we see a body, the characters who were the room claim they saw injuries, or the Creators explicitly state Gina is dead.

Thank you for your time.


  1. I have to admit that I cannot find a flaw in this argument.

    And, really, who would accept a video of a motionless body as proof of a hit? Is the Order really that stupid?

  2. I've taken many CPR courses and its true, Jonas did not correctly position his fingers for taking Gina's pulse. For a correct pulse, he would have had to rest 2-3 fingers parallel to her wrist and above the tendon section of her wrist while pressing towards the middle of her arm. When checking, he was at mid-wrist area - not a good location for arterial blood-flow. Just try it!

  3. I can find a major flaw with this reasoning - Lucy. Do you really believe she wouldn't have checked Gina's body to verify she was dead? She doesn't work for Salinas, she works for Carruthers, and it was undoubtedly the video plus her verification that was the ultimate proof.

    Why show Carruthers the video and not the body? Because Lucy isn't stupid. She's not going to risk dragging a body around the city to the HoO HQ - as powerful as the Order may be, all it would have taken was a minor fender bender and they would have been faced with explaining to the police why they had a corpse in the trunk. Once she had verified that Gina was dead, she had the body disposed of, the scene cleaned and then went to report to her superior.

  4. When the drive-by at the border happened, the TAAG noted that the car had Secret Service license plates.

    It has also been explicitly said and implied multiple times that the Order is likely in control of the police.

    I find it hard to believe that anyone would stop Lucy's car, and even if, one phone call or ID card would stop the cop before he actually searches the car.

    So it's not really a risk, and Gina's dead body is vastly better proof than the video.

    In addition, cleaning up an entire house within hours in the middle of the night isn't exactly stealthy, either. I doubt Lucy was overly concerned with that.

    Also, your reasoning fails at Lucy's allegiance - if she was working for Carruthers directly, Gina's death would be Carruthers's kill, not Salinas's; thus, Salinas could not claim it to ascend.

    In Order for the kill to count for Salinas, Lucy must work for him, thus making her biased, and her word not as trustworthy.

    Lucy is biased, the tape shows no proof, and there is no reason to believe she would have been stopped.
    The corpse would have been the wiser choice for proof.

  5. There is also no evidence to support that Lucy checked the body. That is an assumption you are making and not based on hard fact.

    If Caruthers was in control of the hit he would not need verification from Salinas. He would have his own people do it and bring him Gina's head in a bucket.

    Oh wait, that was some other movie;)

  6. So... maybe I've forgotten, but...

    Salinas didn't kill Emma when she saved Carl, because Salinas couldn't kill a trait positive girl with out getting in trouble.

    In the whole Dr Hart scheme, Emma was traded for Gina. Trait positive girl for trait positive girl.

    Wouldn't this mean Gina is still trait positive? Or am I forgetting somewhere where it was announced that she's no longer trait positive (I have a bad memory...)?

    Salinas can't kill a trait positive girl, or he'd be in trouble.

  7. Gina: How can I believe you?
    Elizabeth: Your blood. It's been compromised. I suspected enough from Dr. Hart's research. He never listened to me. I always said you were a waste of time. But last week, I proved it to them. I arranged for my doctor to complete your lab results, under their ever so watchful eye. I'm sorry about the anesthetic, but you had to be subdued.


  8. True mm, Elizabeth did say that, but when I watched that video, I got the impression that Elizabeth had manipulated the lab results by using "her" doctor... so that the Order would leave Gina alone. She said something about protecting Gina.

    If true, it's possible that someone in the Order found out that Gina really is trait positive... or is useful in some way...

    Gina could have been tranquillized rather than shot with a bullet and may be in the hands of some Elder in the Order now, perhaps unknown to Carruthers.

    That's all a little crazy though, given that the focus of the story was on the Order killing a member of TAAG in order to win the ascension prize.

    Even crazier would be another idea - that Sarah and Carl somehow worked together to make it look like Gina was killed (to put a stop to the hit) and then took her into hiding until Salinas can be dealt with. That seems unsupported by the performances.

    Another possibility is that a Watcher (Aunt Alex told us that Wacher's don't know much about the Order, that they are just there to protect trait positive girls) or some faction within the Order sees it as their duty to protect Gina, and faked her death to stop what they viewed as the wrongful assassination assignment by the corrupt Salinas.

    etc. etc.

    Basically, there is no end to speculative alternative stories that might have been or might be in progress ... I think we just have to tenatively accept what we have been presented with and wait and see what happens.

  9. Here is the full transcript:


    (Gina is carrying the camera, concealed in her purse, toward a picnic table in the park.)
    Gina: (Leans down to the camera.) Here we go.
    (Gina walks to the picnic table.)
    Elizabeth: You alone?
    Gina: Yeah. (Sits and sets her purse down.)
    Gina: Sorry, I just need to grab a tissue.
    Elizabeth: You always did have bad allergies.
    Gina: How would you know?
    Elizabeth: I used to keep you safe; just like I did last week. The Order isn't after you anymore.
    Gina: How can I believe you?
    Elizabeth: Your blood. It's been compromised. I suspected enough from Dr. Hart's research. He never listened to me. I always said you were a waste of time. But last week, I proved it to them. I arranged for my doctor to complete your lab results, under their ever so watchful eye. I'm sorry about the anesthetic, but you had to be subdued.
    Gina: I was really scared, Elizabeth. I mean, you kidnapped me.
    Elizabeth: I had to make it look good. All to prove that you are, indeed (Puts her hand on Gina's arm.), worthless to their cause. You don't get it, do you? I'm here to give you answers.
    Gina: I watched the video, and I- I really knew Bree, didn't I?
    (Elizabeth smiles at the mention of Bree.)
    Elizabeth: Dr. Hart traveled a lot. When you two were both still young, he would have you come and stay with me. He trusted me. We did, after all, rise through Verdus together.
    Gina: And how long ago was that?
    Elizabeth: You were six. It was before we decided to make you Patient 11, an eternal lab rat. You were small, you were upset; you both were upset. To calm you down, I would sing this silly song.
    Gina: Piano Man.
    Elizabeth: (Sings.) "Piano man..."
    Gina: Why are you telling me this all now?
    Elizabeth: I have cancer. It's important I set things straight. I can't do that with Bree, so I sit here with you.
    Gina: And what about the Order?
    Elizabeth: I've had my doubts about them for some time... ever since we got rid of Drew.
    Gina: So did you know Bree would be killed?
    (A thief grabs Gina's purse and runs off with it. Gina runs after him.)
    Gina: Hey! That's my purse!
    (The thief drops Gina's purse and her camera falls out. He rolls on the ground, gets up, and then runs away.)
    Gina: God...
    (Gina picks up her purse and the camera. She turns back to the picnic table to discover Elizabeth has disappeared.)
    Gina: (Sighs.) Elizabeth! Oh, crap.
    (Gina films more of the surrounding area in search of Elizabeth, who is nowhere to be seen.)

    It is certainly possible that the tests were a fake but she certainly implies that they were 'real' and accurate from how i read it. Also the Order must believe them to be real or they would not have put a hit on Gina. We know that the Order does not kill trait positive girls outside the ceremony.

    I think the point being made here is that the so called proof that Salinas was offering for the completion of the hit is inadequate by any standard. Why not just deliver her head to Caruthers. That would be unambiguous. A video tape? Not so much. Right?

    I suppose we should accept that UFO's are real just because Zarbod flies around in one. Opppps.....I was not supposed to let that out of the bag. My bad:) Point being...videos can be misleading so why would Caruther be so gullible?

  10. I wonder whether the writers give it this much thought.

  11. Who cares about Gina , woops 8-)

  12. Another question is did you think the writers anticipated the community reacting in this way?


  14. Ooooh, I forgot about that convo with Elizabeth.

  15. i don't need to read renegade's treatise to tell you that Gina is ALIVE. If the Creators want her to be.

    it can be fun to go round and round and round, and try to apply logic to lg15 (hee hee), but the ultimate answer is: if the Creates want her to be alive, she will be alive.

    So the question is, do the Creators want her to be alive?

    The answer likely is: Maybe.

  16. or, the answer could be: No. Seeing as how they killed her.

    While we're at it, Virgil might still be alive. So could Elizabeth Avery, for that matter. Heck, so could Bree, The Rouge elder, La Rezisto, and a whole lot of others.
    Everyone always says, "I won't believe it till I see a body!!!"
    We've SEEN the body, and yet there's still speculation. Perhaps we need to see a video of Lucy chopping her in to little bits?

  17. I wouls accept that video as eviedence,,, then again maybe the order created a robot resembling Gina... o.O
    I think is time to let go of the pipe....

  18. mm, in your transcript, you forgot the "(wink wink nudge nudge)" after Elizabeth says, "I had to make it look good."


    My theory, which cannot be disproven by any evidence available at this time, is that Gina has beem taken to be made into a "living doll" for Carruther's wax museum, so whether she is alive or dead really just depends on how far along she is on the conveyor belt at the waxworks.

  19. Well, clearly Aunt Alex was a "living doll", so why not Gina 2. You might be onto something here Q. The Order is a front for a wax museum.


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