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Tuesday, September 30, 2008

The Censor Strikes Back

QtheC has once again chosen to "save" the community.  He has removed TunnelRat's videos from the blog here at LG15Today.  People, thought this was over.  It's not..QtheC has learned nothing from everything that has transpired. That was apparent to me because he would not admit to having done anything wrong.  He won't even admit to the actions he took and instead shouts in outrage when someone calls him "names" that accurately depict his actions.  How ironic that during the stages of grief (the theme for Tunnelratatat436's videos) QtheC bargained with TR apparently to add some disclaimers to the videos. These negotiations strangely and very coincidentally took place during the time right before the "Bargaining" video was posted. First off...THAT is a form of censorship through coercion. Frankly it is sickening.  QtheC forced his will onto another person.  Apparently for a short time, that person gave in to this intimidation and posted disclaimers not only on this BLOG but on their videos on Youtube. The disclaimers in essence said,  "(These videos are of a fictional nature depicting a community's grief and are not intended to be taken as threatening to others)". Apparently TunnelRat changed his mind about these disclaimers for whatever reason and altered what was said there.  These are some of the disclaimers that he now has on the videos.  "(The videos in this series depict angry bunnies and should not be viewed as threatening to carrots.  What can we say..we are cheesy cats.) " and "(These videos may contain rapid movements which could be deemed threatening to people with IQs of 436.)"  For this change, QtheC has removed the videos from the blog.  He does this on the grounds that "{content removed due to negation by the author of the previous compromise agreement reached with the author after much discussion by the community}. He words this to make it seem like the community was involved in this compromise agreement when it was simply HIM forcing someone through coercive intimidation to alter their work. He forced someone to alter their own will to suit his own. Now that the person, that being TunnelRat, has changed their mind, QtheC has deemed it his right to remove the posts again from the blog despite the fact that it has become even MORE painfully apparent the author is no threat to the community or anyone else, though it has been shown that QtheC is indeed a threat to this community. On a side note...I find it strangely coincidental that QtheC developed outrage during the "Anger" phase and then claimed to engage in some negotiations with TunnelRat right about the time the "Bargaining" video was being posted. For those that don't know, there are believed to be 5 stages of grief: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and Acceptance. It's amazing that QtheC now has me at the point of depression while we wait for the next video from TunnelRat which sgoukd be "Depression". It's very odd, that these actions by QtheC have gained SO many more views for this video series than it probably ever would have, however, back to the main focus.
ModelMotion wishes for this to be an open egalitarian community and that is wonderful. What must also be recognized is that there are those individuals that are unable to co-exist within a community without infringing on the rights of others. There comes a time when individuals such as these are removed from a community in one way or another. Frankly, it is irresponsible to continue to allow an individual such as this to remain in a position of ANY power. You don't put a pedophile in charge of a day care, you don't hire a drug addict to work in a pharmacy, you don't hire a wall street CEO to oversee the country's money, you don't leave a fox to guard the hen house and you don't allow a person that thinks they know better than everyone else about what they should be exposed to to guard free speech.

TunnelsVideos posts with the videos removed by QtheC:



Video Links:

ModelMotions Letter.

Community Responses to the Situation:



  1. Hmmmmmm...exposition.

  2. This 'community' is currently shooting itself in the head. Please be patient.

  3. I really do think you guys need to discuss this more privately and more politely.

    This makes LG15 and this blog look bad. It honestly just makes me want to stop checking this site...(not that I will, but if this continues much longer....)

  4. I understand there is an issue (of importance) going on here, but I agree with Cassi. This is just getting to the point of ridiculous. If there is an issue, dicuss it with all parties but behind the scenes. I come here regularly for updates on this show or that, but not for you all bringing up issues and then continuously picking at them. Bringing it up once sure, but you all seemed to be at it all weekend. Continue to attack each other if you wish, but not in such a public way.

    Yes I do understand the importance of the issue, which isn't what I'm complaining about. I'm complaining about how you are handling the issue. I'm to the point of getting sick of coming here and seeing what part of the saga has come about today.

  5. I'm not at all surprised there has been a reaction, and am sure there will be discussion to follow.

    I would ask everyone interested in discussing this topic further to please take into consideration the feelings of the users of this blog who would like to focus on its usual content and articles, and who would prefer not to get bogged down in this controversial subject.

    This might mean keeping new comments about it on this single thread, for instance. This is just a suggestion.

    The way things have gone over the last few days here has been very upsetting and hurtful to many readers, and for my part in causing any such hurt, I have generally apologized.

    For my part, I am going to try to stay out of the conversation as much as I can. Suffice it to say, I do not condone or agree with LordGreyStoke's past, latest, or I'm sure future highly biased and distorted descriptions of me or my actions, or think them beneficial to anyone. Is he really trying to protect anyone (as he accuses me of presuming to do), or is he just obsessed with attacking me? I've already apologized for provoking his anger by satirizing his statements about me.

    I also believe that TunnelRatatat has been engaging in a kind of deceptive and manipulative gamesmanship, for his own purposes, which are unstated, but which have proven hurtful to the people here. What is the purpose in changing these descriptions now, just as the controversy was dying down? The matter was settled. Who is he really, and what is his agenda? Does it serve this community to spend additional energy debating these issues?

    I chose to take TunnelRatatat's word at face value about his intentions, and restored the videos according to this assurance, knowing full well it might be an insincere sham. I was disappointed last night to find this was in fact the case, and have acted accordingly.

    As far as I am concerned, the matter is again settled, and TunnelRatatat's work is no longer welcome on this blog. I think this community, including those who agree and disagree with me about certain details, has been toyed with enough. I take no personal satisfaction in this result. It is not what I wanted.

    If anyone has questions for me or would like to air their views to me to help clear the air privately, and would like to contact me directly, YouTube messaging is available to initiate contact (my channel there is imdjdan).

  6. This is not a personal matter. This is about the rights of this blog. This is about ONE person exerting their will through coercion and force on another.and frankly..if you are not concerned with that...maybe you don't truly appreciate your freedom. Some will say its just a blog..its about entertainment it is supposed to be fun. I agree...too bad QtheC doesn't see it that way.
    I wonder how many of you here are actually following the budget crisis. We have ONE man..that being a former CEO of an investment bank..the sort of entity that took risks that put the entire economy in the tank...expecting us to TRUST him with ABSOLUTE power over our economy to rectify this budget situation. For those of you that think THIS fight HERE is silly..it's NOT..This IS something we as a community can change and fix..VERY easily. Speak out in force against what QtheC is doing by appointing himself our protector. There is a poem attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller regarding the Holocaust:

    When the Nazis came for the communists,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a communist.
    When they locked up the social democrats,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.
    When they came for the trade unionists,
    I did not speak out;
    I was not a trade unionist.
    When they came for the Jews,
    I remained silent;
    I wasn't a Jew.
    When they came for me,
    there was no one left to speak out.

    I walk through life ALWAYS remembering this poem. Knowing that one day..it might and will be ME they come for. People complain with regards to the budget crisis saying...I can't do anything about that..and do nothing..instead of calling and writing their elected officials..staging and joining protests. Many people do not recognize just HOW close to the brink we are at this exact moment. We are on the brink of COMMUNISM...Government having more power over your life than ever..which..always seems to gain even more once it passes a certain point.Yet people feel its bigger than they are...too big for them to make a difference..which is of course wrong..but..then...They see a fight over freedom on a very small scale in a place like this one and think.."WHAT a waste of time." Yet this is a "fight" they can truly make a difference in. Instead they act like it is a mutual fight when everything you see here is a response to another forcing his will on a free individual.
    How ironic that people that watch a show about a group resisting others with greater power, that still the free will of others away, do no recognize how important it is to fight for freedom in EVERY place..no matter how small. I recall another saying "Those that are not willing to fight for freedom will soon loose it."
    So go ahead and walk away...because if you aren't willing to fight for your "freedoms" you had no clue what this blog was about.

  7. QtheC,
    I remember another contributor that engaged in highly manipulative gamesmanship....
    The again..so did Lonelygirl15
    Cassie is watching...and the list goes on and on.

    If you had never taken your actions..this would be a non-issue.

  8. The general community is not as involved, and does not need to read a really long post about your opinions on the matter.

    This is more an issue for the editors. I think most of the regular readers would rather have this issue resolved quietly. Obviously there is a difference in opinion and we have already been informed of BOTH sides and BOTH opinions and now it's just petty and melodramatic.

    It discourages new people from joining our community by making it look terribly uninviting and makes it look like there is a lot of in-fighting (even though things are usually relatively peaceful).

    You have both said your piece publicly, not take it to a more private arena where issues can actually be discussed. This is counterproductive. Nothing has ever been resolved through a blog-war.

  9. This blog? I was under the basic assumption that it was about bringing forth news that concerned anything and everything LG15-ish. Sure under the first amendment you have freedom of speech which in then rolls over to this blog, but don't tell me that I'm losing a freedom by having to see you all point fingers at one another (I dont care who was wrong).

    Oh and please dont make this seem as big as the economy crisis. It isn't. That's on a completely different scale of importance. This is a blog, not something that could change America as we know it.

    And that's the last I'm even going to say about this. I really dont want to be pulled in the arguing. And truthfully, any information on this blog can be found elsewhere. This was just a place to pull it all together. There's no true censorship if you can go on youtube and find the videos (easily) there. Just spend an extra few seconds.

  10. This is way past ridiculous.
    Modelmotion you really need to start advertising for someone with the skillz to take over QtheC's work on the blog and get rid of him. There is no way he should have Admin privileges.

    Add this blatant personal vendetta affecting what is on the blog onto the myspace cheating scandal, and it's time for QtheC to lose the power that has gone to his head.

    And, I'll sign this anonymous just to pizz him off.

  11. This is a selected quote from Lordgreystoke (it's just one small sentence from a much longer post) on the tunnelrat argument:

    "Here is a real FANTASTIC tip..if it bugs ya..Don't read it.."

    Is this the response to visitors who are sick of seeing this fight go on and on and on? For them to just stop reading? Cause IMO (oh no, my opinion :P), some people won't just stop looking at these posts... they'll stop visiting.

    I know you're not fond of opinions, but I'd rather not have the evidence to back this one up.

    I, for one, am contemplating visiting the blog much, much less often than I currently do. I'm not looking for anyone to comment on that (I'm not after comments of "no, don't go", "good riddance", or anything in-between)... I mention it because I'd imagine that I'm not the only one who's feeling this way. Is there a viable, peaceful end to this fight? Can a truce be negotiated? Is anyone trying to negotiate? At the moment, it all seems set to continue indefinitely.

    I won't be commenting on anything around this affair from now on. Good luck. :)

  12. I haven't been keeping up and have no idea what's going on, but I like QtheC and I always have.

  13. I am assuming this is part of a game. And even if I am wrong I will believe it for my own sanity.

  14. I'm gonna go with Jenlight on this one. I'm hoping against hope that Q is actually Tunnelrat and this is just a big ole game that him and LGS are playing.

    Otherwise, I might get fed up with the ridiculousness of what this has morphed into and make totally inappropriate comments.

  15. to be very brief, for those interested, i oppose the removal of tunnelrat's videos from the blogposts. i would have allowed them to remain posted regardless of the description, if anyone had asked me.

    i would ask that any lg15today contributors that agree to post their agreement below (a simple "yeah" or "nay" is sufficient). or remain silent if you wish. in any event, minimum drama, just lets get a consensus and move on.

  16. I vote yeah. The tunnelrat vids belong on the blog. They need no disclaimer.

  17. Milo, We are past the point of voting on the content, sorry. I did what I could to enable it to be shown on the blog while addressing the valid concerns that were raised about it's intent to harm other individuals.

    It is no longer about the content of the videos. That issue was already resolved as fairly as possible given the deep conflict.

    A compromise was reached in good faith by me and in a spirit of feigned cooperation by the author with no objections raised (other than not wanting to give away his 'plot' in the disclaimer), and then that agreement was broken without explanation.

    That was the author's choice. There was absolutely no reason to make that choice other than to stimulate more conflict in the community. And that choice has determined the result. TunnelRatatat is no longer welcome to contribute to this blog.

    The content may be shared via YouTube or elsewhere as the author sees fit, but not on this blog.

  18. Yeah.

    To explain why I think the videos should stay: Tunnelrat's videos are helping me through a personal sense of loss and I appreciate being able to share that with the community, which I love. I hope other people are getting something out of them too. I know the discussion that has stemmed from them are messy and not always fun...but they are real and deserve to be here.

  19. And how does it feel to have a sincere grieving process mocked by TunnelRatatat's choices?

    I am concerned that you and others are being manipulated Jenni. Be wary, and take care of yourself.

  20. qthec, i take your vote as a nay. you can say we are past voting or whatever you like. i am just asking for the votes.

    current tally:
    votes to return: 3
    votes to keep censored: 1

  21. I vote to return it. Simply because something is posted here doesn't mean that people have to watch it. There is plenty of content on this blog that doesn't interest me, therefore I don't watch it, read it, or comment on it. Its a freedom of choice that I like to exercise quite frequently. But just because something doesn't interest me doesn't mean that it shouldn't be here.

  22. I say nay because the videos looked like they were done by a 10-year-old with ADD and had no actual value or content. But that's not really the point of the debate.

  23. fair enough, jim, all opinions are welcome.


  24. QtheC, until modelmotion comes in and says yay or ney, you do not have the individual power to strip their inclusion in this blog. You are not any senior to the other admin in this blog, besides modelmotion. I am also admin of this blog, and I would never make a decision on my own for this entire community. There are voices that do and don't want it on this blog. This is not past the point of anything. Your compromise and subsequent breaking of it, while if agreed to it should have been upheld, was not a dealbreaker to inclusion of this blog.

    I do not have an opinion either way on the inclusion of declusion. I will let those who visit this blog decide. And i must say those who read this blog have just as much say as the contributors. That's not meant anything against you milowent, I just want to include everyone in the decision.

    To be an admin of this blog is not usually something that matters, in all honesty. Modelmotion's philosophy of "what admin?" certainly applies with me, because I rarely need it, just for spam comments or malicios comments, or adding LGPedia and UCG headers to posts and sometimes (rarely) adding to the links at the top there. I answer to modelmotion, just like every other "admin" here.

    Again, this is not a post for and against. The community will decide as it always does. One person deciding its not right for this blog does not happen here, unless that person is modelmotion. Until then, this needs to be debated.

    All that said, I do second the call for this to go private. I'm sure I'm not helping, but its just not the way the blog runs for a blanket dismissal of content by one admin (unless its modelmotion), and I didn't like seeing that in these comments.

    Carry on.

  25. I think I am being misunderstood. The point is that TunnelRatatat has made it impossible to do both of these things at the same time:

    1. restore the content to the blog

    2. address the concerns that were originally raised about the intent to do harm to individuals expressed in the videos, something that is not acceptable according to the "Do No Harm" umbrella.

    This is where you risk a "Tyranny of the majority." The minority view is a show stopper.

    I managed to satisfy both previously and the matter was settled, but that depended on taking TunnelRatatat at his word as to his intentions. Now that he has shown this to be done insincerely, there is no way I can see to again satisfy both.

    Voting doesn't make any difference here. It's not possible.

    And now, thanks to this, I am getting sucked in again, and all of you are playing right into this malicious manipulation and gamesmanship. Why defend this?

    Frankly, I think people are being swayed by their impressions based on direct contact with the author, and who they think it might be, rather than looking at the content itself, which hardly reflects it's stated grief stage theme at all.

    So, I'm stopping here. I really wish I could have avoided returning to this thread.

  26. As stated, until modelmotion steps in, the community voice is everything. It would be like me proclaiming that the sky being blue is impossible.

    Let the debate continue on inclusion/declusion.

  27. Tell me, Virginian9000, how do you propose to satisfy both issues now?

    And if you cannot satisfy both at the same time anymore, which one takes precedence?

    Is it more important to include all content on this blog no matter what, or is it more important to insure that concerns under the "Do No Harm" policy are addressed?

  28. q- don't return then. my request was simply, and i agree with v, that anyone should add their 2 cents, should they even care to read this far. v counts as an abstention.


  29. And let's just go ahead and put this on the table. As has been pointed out by others close to this issue, and apparent to me since the first video appeared, Modelmotion is one of a few people who very well may be playing the role of TunnelRat. The "Cry Cry Cry" clip at the end of "Denial" (or some version of that song) was featured in a recent Glenn Rubenstein show, among other clues.

    Modelmotion has not replied to several requests from me for clarification of his understanding of the context of this series, other than one very brief note with a short ambiguious message. Instead of communicating directly with me as it appears he is with others, he has put up the L.O.V.E. material.

    Do you see where I am going with this? How you interpret what is happening depends on who you think TunnelRatatat actually is, and that person's actual intent. I look at the videos and see a lot of hostililty and vengence and death or failure, and very little that matches the titles other than anger.

    Not knowing these things, identity and intent, as far as I am concerned, TunnelRat is TunnelRat, and I'm going by what he or she does as that entity, whoever it may actually turn out to be. And that entity is currently acting to the detriment of this community, by restarting this conflict when it had settled down. It's manipulative and hurtful to the people that use this blog, and those who have become embroiled in this debate.

    If it turns out to be Modelmotion? We'll have to deal with that then. And try to find understanding. And meanwhile try to give the benefit of the doubt to everyone where we can.

  30. You solve the issue I am faced with Milo, and I will be happy to consider your approach. Until then, I cannot see how it helps matters... you are only feeding the conflict.

  31. I vote Yay.
    Q, I find more harmful your videos of you wearing facial prosthetics eating pudding in an OBVIOUS attempt to be disgusting(Hence Jenlight directed to feign disgust as she didn't know what she was acting against..she would have left if she actually saw it I suspect.) That non-withstanding even your intentional attempts to disgust people deserve to be on this blog.
    Anyone that finds a video(Thinking Tunnel's ANGER Vid) that SILLY to be threatening must be daft.

  32. For one thing - when a key number of members wish for Tunnel Rat 436's blogs to remain within the blog, you have to look at the powers of the one who is controlling the whole show!

    I do not believe that any one person should solely be obligated to control the administration contained within this blog-spot.
    It has been proven, that when you have a collective number of minds working together to solve a large problem - often times, that collection comes to a much more adequate and much, much quicker decision.
    It falls from my opinion - having been a board-member of 3 different organizations, that this blog-spot requires a 'Greater Collection' of decision-makers than just one administrative person.
    And I, for one, agree that Tunnel Rat's videos should be shown here.

  33. current tally:

    6 yeah
    2 nay
    1 abstention

  34. Once again, since it seems to have been ignored... How do you accomplish both?

    1. restore the content to the blog

    2. address the concerns that were originally raised about the intent to do harm to individuals expressed in the videos, something that is not acceptable according to the "Do No Harm" umbrella.

    How do you propose now to do both given the choice of TunnelRat to negate the previous compromise we had settled upon, proving insincere with regard to his assurances as to the intent of the series?

    Even if you disagree with 2, are you prepared to ignore those who understand these concerns and share them? Do they need to be spelled out more explicitly again?

    Any solution has to solve both, to be acceptable within our "Do No Harm" policy, no matter how people feel about the return of the material to the blog you are voting on.

  35. I was invited to contribute to this blog at the beginning of the year by modelmotion. It was a very kind gesture and much appreciated. I've never posted a blog entry because I didn't feel I had something of enough value to say.

    Now I'll not contribute because after reading all that has gone on, I don't wish to be associated with a blog that gives qthec such control. If I can't trust my words to left alone and only removed in case of the majority finding fault with them, I have no desire to contribute at all.

    I don't like the tunnelrat videos at all to be honest, I find them boring. Yet they should remain up.


  36. I'm sick of this. Graystoke's personal vendetta against QtheC painting him (unreasonably, in my opinion) is really getting old. QtheC took down some videos in what he thought was the best interest of the community. Whether he was right or wrong is no longer the issue, this was made into a personal matter by Graystoke. He turned it into a matter of personal pride for QtheC. Because of his series of posts, QtheC is either Tyrant or Hero. He can't just be someone who may or may not have made a mistake.

    Honestly, the videos bothered me, but (despite TR's intentions), what actually angers me are the increasingly personal attacks from Greystoke. If there have been any from QtheC, I haven't seen them, imo he has handled himself well given the situation. And honestly, if I hadn't already been on the side of the nays, I would vote nay just so that Greystoke doesn't consider himself the "winner" and thus able and willing to launch another such vendeta against anyone whose opinion or policy does not coincide with his.

    So honestly, if it's going to stop this stupid name-calling session, put the videos up. Let this "artist" (in the loosest use of the word) finish his stages, and let him go to...well, let him disappear.

    I wouldn't watch another TR vid if my life depended on it.

  37. 9 yeah
    3 nay (including brookiebabie, based on above post, being cautious)
    1 abstention

    brookie - not to get into details, but qthec did return a volley against lordgrey in a video he later removed.

  38. I saw that. Didn't make much of an impression. Not as much as Greystokes...stuff. As I said, I think he's handled himself rather well. And if he's not allowed one reaction against the name calling...I personally would not have handled myself nearly as well, nor would I have taken my video down so that it wouldn't bother people who didn't want to be.

    And yes, not that it matters against the sea of "yeas," which I could say something about (oh, don't worry, nothing insulting, lest GS come after me next), but my vote is a nay.

  39. thanks brookiebabe, your vote is recorded properly then.

  40. LOL I seem to have launched a personal vendetta against LGS's personal vendetta...XD

  41. haha. he has a tendency to inspire that.

  42. Well, based on the limited information here (and truthfully, I look at this blog pretty much everyday. I'd never noticed any TR videos until this controversy), and based on what I saw in the actual videos themselves (Yes, controversy sparks interest.), I gotta wonder what the big deal is in the first place. How are these videos considered threatening?
    Whatever the case. If the videos were accepted in the first place, they should stay. It's unfair to post them, have a disagreement over some silly disclaimer and pull them as you see fit.
    QtheC, I noticed you commented on a YT video. Taking the fight to a different ring so to speak. Uncalled for and also unfair imo. Interestingly enough, your comment wasn't deleted.
    I vote yay.

  43. fyi, after some lively chats in IRC, (something about tool and hammer and a stonewall, but I forget) LordGreyStoke and JenniPowell have had their "admin" bits turned on by me.

    They have now joined the ranks of the mightiest of mighties here on the blog.

    Apo has so far reserved his status as a reader/commenter (not an author even), despite some embarrassing begging from the masses.

    Heaven protect us. ;)

  44. My vote is Nay because I'm a bit fan of compromise. The disclaimer may sound pointless, but if it keeps the peace then what's the harm.

    Brooke you're not the only one who tires of the personal attacks. LGS always seems to take everything to the extreme.

    (Assuming as a reader I can have a vote)

  45. Correction, Apo is an admin too now, but I had nothing to do with it, so when his reign of terror begins, don't come crying to me.

  46. This is the first time I ever regretted comment 436. Not that it actually has anything to do it with this mess.

    I just don't have the time to read everything so if I'm wrong let me know. QtheC pulled the videos again, because TR changed the disclaimer. People aren't happy about anything involving this whole mess. There is an unofficial vote.

    My vote is, videos should not have been removed.

  47. Here was the extent of my reign of terror.

    I asked QtheC if he would mind having his admin status revoked here at the blog.

    I asked him this via IRC and email.

    I will not add his response here, because I do not publicly quite private communications.

    I only accepted the aforementioned admin status to demonstrate to QtheC just how one should operate when they decide to change a person's status within the community. I have now reverted my own status to that of "reader."

  48. Just out of curiosity, why doesn't everyone involved in this have it out on BreeFM. All you need is someone to moderate the discussion so it doesn't turn into an all out shout fest. I think it would be interesting and make for a good radio show, I mean internet radio show.

  49. Do No Harm
    This blogspot has one clear guideline: "do no harm". In most situations this guide allows a great deal of freedom. It allows each author to post what they want in a way where they are personally responsible for the content of their post. From time to time we add and edit each others posts to improve them and provide additional information in the spirit of collaboration. We allow anyone to leave comments on the blogspot and we even allow anonymous. All of this is inherent to the philosophy of freedom that grew up on lonelygirl15 "comments" under the "stewardship" of WatchingOne and was built into this blogspot from its inception.

    We expect each author to live up to that responsibility and ultimately they in turn are responsible to the community who will always make it quite clear when a post crosses the line. The "do no harm" guide does lend itself to different interpretations, but it is meant in the sense that to cross the line harm should be tangible and substantial.

    Examples of harm can range from copyright infringement to personal liable, from the result of the creators leaving a mic on to a massive spoiler that would destroy a series for others. Sometimes their will be "fuzzy areas" where it is difficult to tell what is in game and what is out of game; what is a spoiler and what is not. We had one massive comments flame war that revolved around that theme. In the end we need to put our faith in the community.

    For the most part when the community has asked an author to remove a post for one reason or another they have done it on a voluntary basis as should be the case. On occasion a post may be taken down on a temporary basis in order to provide time to consult with the author and the community regarding the post. However it is the author of the post, subject to the community response to the post, that is ultimately responsible for what is presented on LG15 Today.

    It is the balance between individual judgment and our collective wisdom that makes the blogspot such a powerful tool. Having freedom is a great responsibility and we trust everyone who is an author on the blogspot to use it wisely.

    There will always be new issues that arise and it is important that we listen to each other and understand each others concerns. However in the end LG15 Today only works if each of us is individually responsible for our contributions. It is not a blank check to do anything you want but rather an invite to engage with a really wonderful community and participate in a very special form of collaboration.
    -"To cross the line harm should be tangible and substantial". We fail to see how this criteria has been met within this series of videos.

    -Given that tangible and substantial harm has not been established we think the posts should be restored to their original condition based on the fact their has not been a significant outcry against the videos.

    -We understand that not everyone is going to approve or enjoy every video on the blogspot but we do respect the ability of any community member to post what they sees fit. This is subject to their personal accountability for anything posted, and also subject to the broader reaction of the community to the subject matter.

    -It is not our role to make demands on authors on the blogspot because that could have a dampening effect on the creative process. If an individual welcomes such discussions then that is one thing but to place demands on them could have a chilling effect especially in the case of ARGs. As such we must evaluate the creative effort placed in front of us by the creator subject to their own willingness to provide additional information on a fully voluntary basis.

    -If anyone at Eqal Inc. feels that this video series is a personal threat they can take the matter up with YouTube which hosts the videos. They can also cc: LG15today@gmail.com so that we are aware of any concerns they might have.

  50. Well, I think with that comment the videos should be restored to the fullest. Modelmotion has clarified how he feels the Do Not Harm policy applies in this case. I encourage Q to restore the videos now. In any case, if no one else does, I will be posting the next tunnelratatat video myself, as long as somehow the video doesn't fall below my personal posting guidelines. Hopefully, this shall end this matter.

  51. Thank you Modelmotion, for taking the time to thoughtfully and coherently address the full range of issues at hand. As always, I know I and the rest of this community appreciate your wisdom, not in all it's particulars or practical implications, but in the main of your intention and vision.

    I should note that had you bothered to respond to my many requests for your advice and assistance through this period, I might have let you know that I have already inquired by email a couple of days ago as to the feelings of those targeted by the "Denial" video, and am awaiting a response.

    While respecting your sincerity and passionate ideals, I think there are serious blindspots, that your ideal notion of "community concensus" is a rare bird I have yet to actually see though it is often claimed - that kind of democracy is messy and imperfect favoring the few and the loud, and brings with it an inherent tendency to squash the concerns of the minority rather than seeking a compromise that serves the whole community. There are toxins in your purple koolaid.

    Just consider the down side of mob-rule and the concept known as the "tyranny of the majority" (at the risk of mentiong that heavily loaded word again... I don't know how else to concisely name the concept it describes). These are fundamental issues of freedom and democracy, and I do not mean to try to elaborate, but only to remind you of these ideas, and the lessons available from our own imperfect governmental history, and it's antecedents.

    I have expressed my views about recent events at length on Milo's video, and will try instead to focus on more general issues here. Your post, and the emphasis it places certainly makes sense as a guiding philosophy for this blog, with its strength in stressing individual expression, individual responsibility, and inclusiveness, and I will do what I can to support it going forward in support of those values, essentially by trying to stay out of the way of these kinds of decisions and letting them play out as them may.

    I'm tired of the conflicts, and tired of being misunderstood. I'm also disappointed in many of my friends, and their williness to assert and propagate false assumptions about my intentions. I'm disappointed that blatant and extensive personal attacks and outright lies about myself and my character have been quietly tolerated and allowed to stand, despite objections raised by myself and others, where in the past such material not directed at me was summarily removed from this blog. Why have these attacks and jeering insults been tolerated with little or no support for the requests for civility? Because some here in influential positions had an axe to grind, to the detriment of all.

    It is also quite clear that there has been a shift in influence now, mine diminishing, and others' rising - that is the nature of things when there is conflict, and I'm actually okay with that notion. Leadership needs to change over time for an institution to remain healthy and vibrant. Sometimes a fresh set of foolishness and mistakes brings growth. It's not all bad, and may have been a necessary correction, since obviously my best efforts and intentions engendered much ill-will, unfairly perhaps, but unhappiness nonetheless.

    I wish the community luck in bearing the consequences of this shift, as I anticipate a brief interlude of euphoria as the dominating faction celebrates, only to fall into a lull of normal activity until the next chaotic episode of drama. The process you are trying for insures it. Decisions are going to be painful to reach when there are conflicting views and diffuse, poorly defined authority to reach a conclusive resolution. Will the concerns and needs of the entire community be best served by continuing to insist on instituting such a chaotic system? It didn't work out so well this time. The problem I had was that I tried to offer leadership, without a clearly recognized basis (the basis was historical, not instituted) or widely recognized role.

    It's obvious that's what people want sometimes, someone who can be the final arbiter. Look at those who, in feeling frustrated with me, have been saying "wait for Modelmotion" and "Modelmotion says so, so it is so" or those such as LordGreyStoke, asking you to exercise power (which he says he so abhors), by kicking me off the blog. But your method is more indirect, and I have to appreciate the tenacity with which you apply yourself to that philosophy, mm, while pretending you are not in an authority position at all. Just be careful about your philosophy's limitations, and your own inflexibility. There's a reason for systems with elected leaders, with rules in place such that they are replaced periodically. Something to consider down the road, perhaps, if Modelmotion allows it, I mean, if the community wills it.

    It's "his blog" after all, or so I hear from those who have wanted to get around me without dealing with me on the issues, mixed with Modelmotion's consistent insistence that it is the "community's blog." It's both and more, actually. I myself certainly have had a huge vested interest and commitment to this shared resource, as you know. Is it my blog? I wouldn't say so, but I would say I care about what happens and how it is used and misused, and have worked from the blog's inception to create what we have here according to my own ideals and vision of inclusiveness and responsibility, and in that sense, I feel ownership of it. I hate seeing it misused.

    Who will be the next focal point of mass hysteria and venom? What will be the next polarizing issue, and what factions will emerge? Who will decide what is the "community concensus" when one groups says it is clearly this, and others say it is clearly that? Drama is guaranteed.

    Already LordGreyStoke, with his three days of experience and one ranting article contributed to the blog, has taken it upon himself to use his shiny new admin bit (that I set for him yesterday) to implement the "community concensus" as determined by Milowent according to an arbitrary voting period within a part of one day, and Milowent's assesement of the majority view. Nothing to worry about with that process.

    It's an interesting experiment to be sure, and I'm not unwilling to be surprised. I just have my doubts. I expect there will be some generally successful interludes marked by spectacular explosive failures, hurt feelings, and fallout. The hope is that there is enough basic good will in people to finally trump whatever system or non-system is in place.

    Yeah, I tried hard here to do the right things for the right reasons, and to serve the good of the entire community. I have, in this instance, been overridden by the vocal mob. LordGreyStoke and friends have restored the TunnelRatatat videos, with no attempt to address the original concerns I raised about the content and others have echoed, ignoring the dishonesty and contempt TunnelRatatat has demonstrated for these concerns and my efforts to address them. So be it.

    I am sorry for those whose concerns were not addressed by this result, and for the reduction in standards of responsibility in sharing and promoting content this particular decision represents. It's wrong.

    I'd appreciate, personally, a cessation of personal attacks and dipictions, in whatever form, directed at me.

  52. Wow, I am not going to even bother signing in to leave this comment. It's Mike Howell btw. But Qthec is without a doubt one of the most whiney, acting like a baby when he doesn't get his way people I have ever seen.

    His passive agressive way of writing is laughable. He complains about insults said against him when I could post a dozen insults he has written in the last 2 days.

    He's acting like such a brat that I don't even feel the ability to write with any kind of respect. He makes me want to just point and laugh and stick my tongue out. For he is not worth any intelligent response in my book.

    I hope this stuff ends soon or I might as well delete this blog from my favourites as I have no fun coming here anymore.

  53. Just to clarify one thing... At the beginning of my earlier comment, when I wrote:

    "Thank you Modelmotion, for taking the time to thoughtfully and coherently address the full range of issues at hand. As always, I know I and the rest of this community appreciate your wisdom, ... {snip} ... in the main of your intention and vision. "

    I meant that as a sincere statement and did not intend it to be a sarcastic remark. I just wanted to clarify that since when I went back and re-checked my comment, I realized it could easily be read either way given all the qualifiers.

  54. Here's a thought.
    Q, start your own blogspot. Absolute power man, think about it.
    You could be a video censoring god!
    To hell with any messy consensus or community spirit.
    You could write 800 word comments every single day and squash anyone who fails to read the whole thing or (god forbid) disagree with you.
    You could make disclaimers mandatory. Every video, every comment, every post could start with a disclaimer. Hell, you could write a list of 800 word disclaimers and make it a multiple choice thing...if, of course, you decide to allow choices.
    DUDE! You could do entire video series with nothing but disclaimers! They're very important y'know. Even if someone were a menace, a simple disclaimer would end their threat immediately. You know how honest people are. They put a disclaimer up, it's as good as gold. No worries from then on.
    Yeah, start a blog. Rule the world.
    Go Quince!

  55. Just to clarify one thing... At the beginning of my earlier comment, when I wrote:

    "Here's a thought.
    Q, start your own blogspot. Absolute power man, think about it.
    You could be a video censoring god!
    To hell with any messy consensus or community spirit.
    You could write 800 word comments every single day and squash anyone who fails to read the whole thing or (god forbid) disagree with you.
    You could make disclaimers mandatory. Every video, every comment, every post could start with a disclaimer. Hell, you could write a list of 800 word disclaimers and make it a multiple choice thing...if, of course, you decide to allow choices.
    DUDE! You could do entire video series with nothing but disclaimers! They're very important y'know. Even if someone were a menace, a simple disclaimer would end their threat immediately. You know how honest people are. They put a disclaimer up, it's as good as gold. No worries from then on.
    Yeah, start a blog. Rule the world.
    Go Quince!"

    I meant that as a sarcastic remark and did not intend it to be a sincere statement. I just wanted to clarify that since when I went back and re-checked my comment, I realized it could easily be read either way given all the qualifiers.

  56. I like the sarcasm about the sarcasm - you don't see that every day.

    I tend to agree a disclaimer does very little to insure safety in itself, but it was the best compromise I could find in this case to address the concerns raised, and get the content back on the blog.

    It's a bit of a 'wave' at the issue, but at least gives concerned viewers some small assurance or clarification from the video maker about the intended message, which was vague in case and might be viewed as threatening but not intended to be.

    It is never possible to guarantee sincerity, but until there is good reason to assume otherwise, what choice is there but to take someone's statements at face value?

    I did the best I could, as I have said. It was a grey situation.

  57. Qtec, we can give you 700 billion reasons why other systems do not always work perfectly.

    LG15 Today has been an "experiment" and a learning experience from day 1. We actually admire how well most have risen to the opportunity of taking personal responsibility within a collaborative environment. From time to time new authors and new video series raise new concerns and cause us to reflect.

    To assume that others do not consider your opinions carefully would be wrong but to assume that consensus is always correct would be equally wrong as we stated elsewhere. At some point the concept of "reasonable" comes into play and I think LG15 Today has accomplished that fairly well over its short life given the amount of freedom it attempts to offer.

    In terms of the tone of the blogspot it appears we still have some fine tuning to do on the L.O.V.E. algorithm but please remember it is still in beta test.

    Here is a copy of what we posted elsewhere:

    The words "democracy" and "republic" tend to be loaded words within the political spectrum. We have previously described how the blog works and neither "democracy" or "republic" would accurately describe that process. We think it is better to look at each poster as an individual who has been granted a right to post based on an acceptance by them of personal responsibility for their post. If a poster either deliberately or inadvertently post something that does harm then the post is treated accordingly. For example, if it contains copyright infringement then the post may be edited. While we want each author to feel free to post what they want we also want them to be accountable to the community. That is in interactive process and it is intended to consider both minority opinions and majority opinions. We try to listen to all the feedback we get from the community but in the end the blogspot needs to go with what seems "reasonable" given the nature and intent of LG15 Today. This may be a new way of thinking to some who have grown up in societies with a particular view of the World and their own personal opinion of how a society is "supposed to work." However LG15 Today grew out of the notion of individual freedom that developed on lonelygirl15 comments and it is set up in a way where we attempt to maintain those values by following one simple principle: "do no harm", as oulined previoiusly.

  58. LGS is an admin now? Oh lordy.
    He's such a drama queen.

  59. Dramatic as fat,black flies bumping into the window....it is all about the drama after all.


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