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Sunday, December 14, 2008

A look back - Michiev

So i did some digging into the old videos from lonelygirl15, and im talking old. back when bree was still around and i analyzed everything sarah did or said up until this point (yeah i have no life, i know :D) but it all makes sense now. if anyone is still confused about sarah being evil the whole time.. check this out.

http://pastebin.com/m5bd8245d


UPDATE: due to extensive arguing over the comments, ive made the post non-commentable
- michiev

UPDATE: people just need to talk it out with respect. We do not turn off comment on LG15 Today. ~mm

64 comments:

  1. Interesting. It makes sense somewhat reading that.

    ReplyDelete
  2. While interesting, I think you're pretty much cherry picking there.

    The very fact that she stayed with them for so long speaks for it not just having been about Jonas, as she says it was in the finale. Had the sole point been to capture Jonas (last year and before they still had Maggie, no need to capture her), then she simply could have waited a month until they trusted her, and called Lucy or her Dad in the middle of the night.
    Or when they were at the Lullaby Project offices - if Sarah was with the Order, then it was basically Jonas alone in Order-controlled offices, not expecting anything to go wrong. Perfect opportunity to catch him. Again, the Order had Maggie at that point (LBL was working with Verdus back then) - there is no logical reason at all not to capture Jonas there.

    As said, it's interesting to read, but honestly, I'm 100% sure you could do the same cherry-picking for any character. If I went back and went from Miss Me? forward, I'm sure I could find enough quotes and images to suggest that Daniel has been an OpAphid-controlled sleeper since when - up until two days ago, when he, totally out of character, doesn't seem to care that Jonas was captured - clearly he is still under the influence of OpAphid!!

    As said - interesting, but cherry-picking. In the great scheme of things, Sarah had way too many opportunities to be evil and wasn't, and did way too many good things, to honestly believe this was planned all along.
    I will believe they played with the idea, but I do not believe it was solid in any way before We're Screwed!.
    And even after that, even if they planned it all through The Resistance, the same applies - night after night, she had a chance to kill them, stun them, tie them up, lead them into a trap. And yet, you want me to believe that was her plan all along, and she wanted to wait until they found out she was evil? Under the threat of Maggie remembering at the wrong moment and killing her while she sleeps? I don't think so.

    You point out the supposed connection of Sarah telling Jonas he was "the One" as proof that she was evil "all along"...what you're forgetting is that that was after We're Screwed! - basically, you're trying to prove that Sarah was evil before she was declared evil, with a scene that was shot after she had been declared evil. Doesn't work out.

    Pulling out evidence that she's evil after it had already been decided she was evil is not hard. What's interesting is, does it make sense she was supposedly evil before that?
    And for that, I believe, you are cherry-picking.

    Take, for example this supposed piece of evidence (chosen at random):
              It is odd that the episode is titled the ladies room, considering sometime later (lg15 the resistance) sarah has to go alone into a ladies room to find a note to lead her to the cure when she goes to boston.
    No. Just no. It is not "odd". It's perfectly fine - because, if you have seen the episode, you know that "I'm going to the ladies' room" is Sarah's cover story for snooping around the Lullaby Project's office. A perfectly adequate title.
    There are only so many places where you can demand to be alone without raising suspicion. What would your alternative suggestion be? Posting the note on craigslist? Taping it to a pillar in the subway station? A location in a subway station where you can demand to have privacy and not be filmed. What places other than the toilets can you come up with, that normal passengers have access to?
    Toilets are normal. Not subject of conspiracy.

    Another random example?
              Sarah returns to her slutty ways (sluttiness prevails) in the second season, going out with massive ammounts of makeup on and very seductive outfits. maybe she was trying to manipulate someone to get information?
    This is a perfect example of what I mean. There is not the slightest bit of evidence. I could say "Maybe she is secretly still seeing Daniel?" and it would be just as valid. It's a totally baseless suggestion with no supporting evidence.

    Another one?
              "in "They Broke In!!!" sarah seems anxious to leave after they find the lab trashed and the serum still there."
    ...what does that have to do with anything? If anything, this is evidence against her being evil, 'cause, if she was with the Order, she wouldn't have to fear them (= be anxious), and this way, she could be sure the Order (through her) had the serum under control - which is a good thing, from her point of view. Better than some rogue party having it. (Not that that would ever happen...right, LaRezisto?)

    And it goes further! What you're forgetting to mention is that Sarah turns out to be the one keeping the serum later, that she brings it back, and actively advocates that Emma takes it. If she's the evil one, if she's working for the Order, if the Order wants Emma, why on Earth would she do that?

    That's what I mean. You're totally cherry-picking. You can't go and basically say "look, it was totally obvious" and then ignore all the giant things that speak against it, starting from the fact that she had no logical reason to wait two years to strike.


    We're talking about LG15. So yes, it is possible this was planned from the beginning and they just utterly fail at script writing and continuity. But if you want to support that view, at least take everything into account, and take valid examples. e.g. you are mentioning
              Sarah returns to be a part of the TAAG in shadow of death, after, her father made her return to them, supossidly.
    ...instead of pointing out something a lot more interesting: Sarah doesn't just "return" in that episode - she appears totally out of nowhere, right when the Order hunts TAAG!

    That is interesting. That is worth pointing out. Not mentionings of toilets a year in advance.

    ReplyDelete
  3. In case you're wondering, it was five.

    Five times that 'gade said "cherry-picking" in that argument.

    I think I'll leave this one anonymous...

    ReplyDelete
  4. I think Renegade's argument might be a solid one, but I can't be bothered reading the whole thing.

    ReplyDelete
  5. I can't be bothered to read michiev's arguement either. There are way too many spelling and grammatical errors in it. My brain would kill itself.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Aha! But what if Sarah wanted Emma to take the serum because she was jealous of Jonas spending so much time fawning over Emma... the same way she accused Jennie of being all that time later in Big Bear. That's why she would even think to accuse Jennie of being jealous of Jonas and his sister (a really weird accusation, btw) -- because she herself had been jealous of the exact same thing in the past!

    SEE. Sarah is evil! Jennie is evil! Jonas is evil! Renegade is evil! EVERYONE IS EVIL!

    ReplyDelete
  7. oh so sorry anon #2, not everyone can be as gramatically correct as you are.

    and ren, please. get shorter winded arguments. i posted this for people to read, not to post LONG WINDED comments about what you think about how everything i posted is wrong.

    and anon1, thanks :)

    ReplyDelete
  8. and uh *snickers* im pretty sure if i was cherry-picking, id have a pie right now

    ReplyDelete
  9. Silly Renegade...

    Everything michiev stated is valid. After all that has happened, you are STILL trying to find excuses to support Sarah. Get a clue. The fact is plain and simple....She was Order all the way (Ever since "Crazy Emo Chick).

    ReplyDelete
  10. err....how so, dear recent anonymous?
    Care to elaborate?

    ReplyDelete
  11. Renegade, you can find all the "alternate" reasons she did what she did. But that doesn't mean you are right. All the things stated in this post "could" indicate Sarah was Order. What did we find out??? Sarah is in fact IN THE ORDER. Those are all clues, Renegade. Some of us accept the fact that she was sloppy in her "cover-up".

    ReplyDelete
  12. Who is finding "alternate reasons"?
    I'm not saying she's good. It's pretty fucking obvious she's evil. I'm saying IT MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE SHE IS EVIL AND IS CLEARLY A RETCON/FUCKUP.

    God how I love people who don't read the text and still reply *rolleyes*

    ReplyDelete
  13. You posted,

    "Maybe she is secretly still seeing Daniel?" and it would be just as valid. It's a totally baseless suggestion with no supporting evidence. "

    That is an "alternate reason" for her actions. Oh..and the fact that is WAS proven evil supports the idea that "Sarah returns to her slutty ways (sluttiness prevails) in the second season, going out with massive ammounts of makeup on and very seductive outfits. maybe she was trying to manipulate someone to get information?"

    (notice I said idea...I don't think anyone is saying that is the true explaination of her actions)

    ReplyDelete
  14. That's not an alternate reason, that's an example to show how baseless the argument is.
    The fact that Sarah is evil does not prove, in any way, shape or form, that she was slutting it up to get information out of unseen characters. No matter how you twist it.

    But let's play a game.
    Simple question for you:
    According to Sarah, in the car, getting Jonas was the entire point of her assignment.
    Before November 3rd, 2007, the Order still had Maggie, through LBL, through Verdus.
    Therefore, before November 3rd, 2007, Maggie was not an issue. It was purely and solely about Jonas.

    Crazy Emo Chick was released on May 1st, 2007. May to November are six months. Let us assume an average of 30 days per month, that makes 180 days and nights.
    Now let's be generous. Let's subtract 80 days to account for any episode where she wasn't with TAAG.

    That are still 100 nights in which she could have opened the door to Lucy and a gang of Shadows to capture Jonas in his sleep.
    100 times. Every single night. On the days, she could have lured them into traps, drugged their food, and so on. Instead, she chose to fight the Order and save innocent girls with them.

    They had Maggie. She would have earned full credit, a full "job done" stamp for just Jonas. It would have been as easy as calling Lucy and going "Okay, he's asleep now." She would have gained immortality over a year ago.

    What is your logical explanation for why she idled around and almost got herself killed multiple times in the fight against the Order instead?

    ReplyDelete
  15. Uhhh...but the Order Didn't have Maggie...LBL did. When Beaumont helped her escape from LBL, THAT is when the Order had her. In the back of the truck. And as we saw from the footage, maggie excaped from the truck thus was in the Order's possesion for not even for a whole day..

    ReplyDelete
  16. Oh and...I am just LMAO at this...

    "The fact that Sarah is evil does not prove, in any way, shape or form, that she was slutting it up to get information out of unseen characters. No matter how you twist it."

    Didn't you even read my post???

    I never said it was proof...here I'll post my statement again...

    (notice I said idea...I don't think anyone is saying that is the true explaination of her actions)

    ReplyDelete
  17. Are you even following the series?
    Let me quote LGPedia for you:
    "LifesBlood Labs LLC is a pharmaceutical company that had once been part of Verdus Pharmaceuticals as an "experimental" sub-division of its research and development department."

    And:
    "In Connections, Jonas was able to conclude that Verdus Pharmaceuticals was merely another front for the Order, and would be working to help the Elders obtain the eternal life they so desperately desire."

    So, LBL belonged to Verdus, Verdus belonged to the Order. Statement logically clear, or do I have to use bold again?
    The Order did have Maggie.

    It was purely about Jonas, and it makes no sense at all Sarah would have waited, had she been planned as evil back then.
    This is a recent decision, a retcon, and a badly done one.

    ReplyDelete
  18. LBL might have been a "partner" at one point, but they were NOT the Order. An "LLC" is a seperate business entity. LBL had Maggie, the Order wanted her. LBL didn't agree with the Order's (Verdus) methoids or demands and would not cooperate, so the ended the partnership.

    (Have you been watching the series?)

    P.S. My company is owned by another company. That company owns many companies. My company does not have unrestricted access to the other companies resources. Same thing here.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Oh..and quoting LGPedia is smart. You do know that is written and updated by fans...

    ReplyDelete
  20. So how much ingame material do I have to provide until you stop trying to question official canon information?

    No, wait, let me guess? I hacked the server and put it on lg15.com, right?

    ReplyDelete
  21. As for the "My company does not have unrestricted access to the other companies resources" bullshit....they were told about the trait positive gene. I think it's quite evident they got top secret information from the Order.

    ReplyDelete
  22. ren, i was just saying that if you go back far enough. which i apparently wasted my entire night on last night. you can see that some of the stuff sarah did in the past few seasons haven't all put her in peoples eyes as a good person. i mean seriously, stop talking about retconning and all that bullsh*t, you obviously have NEVER seen the series, or payed much attention to it at all. because if you would have, you would see that i make valid points, and uhm if sarah was evil the entire time. she had a plan, her plan most likely did NOT include shoving jonas into the back of a truck the moment she met him. because see. the order has to do things the hard way. if you want to go back and forth from her and lgpedia posting stuff we already know. go ahead, no one is stopping you... but i just want to let you know, your only "cherry-picking" here. :)

    ReplyDelete
  23. Notice I said "unrestricted". Sure they share information. But what belongs to one company doesn't necissarily belong to the other.

    and here...Let me post the statement that is on the front page of the LGPedia....

    Welcome to LGPedia!
    LGPedia was set up by the Creators of lonelygirl15 to give the fan community a place to collect information about the project, and it's been growing and prospering ever since. There are currently 2,648 pages in our database, and every day sees new additions, ranging from story-related articles such as detailed transcripts of each video, comprehensive pages on even the most minor characters and everything we know about the Hymn of One to a vast assortment of meta-information, like production credits, fan fiction and even a guide to the main site's features!

    Due to its collaborative nature, there is no one webmaster of this encyclopedia - every user is welcome to add and correct information wherever possible, and we're glad about every help we can get. So don't be afraid to click the "edit" button when you see something that needs fixing, and don't be afraid to add new pages, either.

    We hope you'll find what you're looking for, and will be glad to assist you should the need arise - just check out the help section to the left, and if that doesn't answer your questions, contact us directly.

    The Administrators


    See...no need to hack in...all you need to do is click the edit button...

    ReplyDelete
  24. I don't really get this hostility people seem to have towards rengegade and his arguments.. They seem to make a lot of sense to me.

    Really, I get the idea that the whole Sarah being evil deal was just an idea that the creators had back when the character was introduced. Something along the lines of they always knew she was gonna be a plant, they just didn't know how it all was gonna work out.

    But I dunno....

    ReplyDelete
  25. And I'll leave you with this Renegade...

    Did you even listen to Sarah's video in the car?? listen (read) what she said...let's break it down..

    You just never saw it coming...We've been together for, what, two years? Running around, causing trouble...All it took was saving your butt a couple of times, and you just forget everything! ...
    (as long as she "helped" every once in a while, she gained a little trust.)

    I mean, sure, a couple of girls, they had to die along the way, but really? Bree? Who misses her? She was just a whiny little loner. And then there was Bree Jr., Gina. And, uh, that stupid British chick. Oh, bimbo on the boat. And now Maggie. Sweet, militant, pain in my ass Maggie. And you would just love to screw each and every one of them...
    (This shows that she NEVER cared about any of the girls. These feelings and statements did not come to her overnight.)

    ...Anyway, my point, which I got off somewhere, is you, Jonas Wharton, chosen one, Mister Personality, beefcake, pretty-boy, are so unbelievably stupid!
    ...Hello? McFly? I'm evil! Totally, and completely, and utterly evil. They promised me eternal life in exchange for your dumbass. And brownie points if I deliver your wispy little girlfriend...
    (Pointing out that Jonas didn't see the clues and figure it out)

    And to all of you? Like I said before, thank you. None of this would have been possible without all your help and support. You know, it's funny, 'cause I really thought you'd be smarter than that, but... Well, I was pleasantly surprised. Kisses.
    (Pointing out that most of you didn't see the clues and figure it out)

    Maybe you should watch the video again...and LISTEN this time.


    Or maybe you are just upset because Sarah called you stupid...
    later!

    ReplyDelete
  26. Ben, there is no hostility...

    But, the fact that her actions over the past two years could have been considered suspicious, AND we find out that She is actually Evil, AND she basically says she has been evil for the whole two years just supports the IDEA that her actions were infact malicious.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Okay, how do I explain this in simple terms....how about this: Using information from after the retcon to explain it's not a retcon is sort of...retarded?
    Of course she said it was that way all along - that was the point of saying it! That does not mean it actually matches anything she did in the past or logically makes sense! It is the purpose of a retcon to redefine the past. Had her dialog in that episode not expressed that it was that way all along, it would neither be a retcon, nor a problem. Do you understand that, or do I have to resort to crayon drawings?

    And nice try with the pedia intro, but I do notice that you ignore that the ingame material I posted has that exact quote in it. It's not made up fan stuff, it's the leading sentence of official canon material, which also happened to end up on the pedia.

    LBL belonged to Verdus. No matter in what way you try to discredit LGPedia.

    And I don't know where you're trying to go with the "unrestricted" crap - what scientific secret does the Order have that is even more precious than the trait positive gene? It's pretty obvious LBL had quite a lot of access, which is sort of logical, since they were part of Verdus's research department, and researched on that.

    Where are you going with this? Are you suggesting, despite LBL being part of the Order, and despite the Order tracking all trait positive girls, and despite LBL's employees at least being affiliated enough with the Hymn of One or the Order to call them for help (see Beaumont, LBL somehow managed to secretly capture all the trait positive girls for their experiments, without the Order's knowledge?
    Sounds a little far-fetched.

    @michiev:
    How about, instead of just randomly claiming you make valid points, you actually show where? I picked three at random and they were worthless. I fourth one I picked and showed that, even there was a giant opportunity to make a valid point, you went for something entirely different and borderline irrelevant.

    You claim Sarah had a plan. I'm calling you out on that one. Show it. Justify it. Explain it.
    Sarah claims in the car the goal was getting Jonas. She could have gotten Jonas at basically any point in time since May 2007. What did she get two days ago that was worth waiting for one and a half years for?
    Maggie? They had her.
    Alderman? "Gone", according to her, both to Lucy (?) and Jonas.
    The book? They've had that for weeks. No need to wait.

    So, what is it? What is the mysterious element of Sarah's master plan that is conveniently unmentioned and unshown, but absolutely explains why she just idled around fighting her bosses instead of doing her job for two years?

    Oh, and I'd also like you to explain how I'm cherry-picking here.

    ReplyDelete
  28. LOL...Silly Renegade...its ok...

    Go ahead and continue to be upset that "all of a sudden" your precious Sarah was deemed evil.

    I never said LBL wasn't part of Verdus. I also never said LBL wasn't getting info from the Order. What I was saying is, the Order couldn't just "use" Maggie any time they wished. Of course the Order knew about Maggie. They just wanted to "use" her at thir will for evil intentions. This is why LBL broke off.

    Oh..and has this "retcon" been officially announced as being canon???

    Oh, and can you use a green crayon?? I like green!!!

    ReplyDelete
  29. Point is...Sarah is evil. She said she was always evil. Some of us picked up on that from the start. Don't be upset and try to make excuses that "they just decided to make her evil". Accept it and move on.

    I'm Done.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Appeal to ridicule

    No matter how cheaply you try to insult me, that doesn't change the fact that you have yet to provide a single shred of evidence for anything said. Your greatest feat so far was trying to argue against offical, canon information I posted - way to go. (And yeah, no matter how much you try to focus any readers on LGPedia's non-canon status, that quote is from canon material, which I provided. No way to get out of it. LBL belonged to Verdus. No matter in what way you try to discredit LGPedia.)

    And I don't know where you're trying to go with the "unrestricted" crap - what scientific secret does the Order have that is even more precious than the trait positive gene? It's pretty obvious LBL had quite a lot of access, which is sort of logical, since they were part of Verdus's research department, and researched on that.

    Where are you going with this? Are you suggesting, despite LBL being part of the Order, and despite the Order tracking all trait positive girls, and despite LBL's employees at least being affiliated enough with the Hymn of One or the Order to call them for help (see Beaumont, LBL somehow managed to secretly capture all the trait positive girls for their experiments, without the Order's knowledge?
    Sounds a little far-fetched.

    @michiev:
    How about, instead of just randomly claiming you make valid points, you actually show where? I picked three at random and they were worthless. I fourth one I picked and showed that, even there was a giant opportunity to make a valid point, you went for something entirely different and borderline irrelevant.

    You claim Sarah had a plan. I'm calling you out on that one. Show it. Justify it. Explain it.
    Sarah claims in the car the goal was getting Jonas. She could have gotten Jonas at basically any point in time since May 2007. What did she get two days ago that was worth waiting for one and a half years for?
    Maggie? They had her.
    Alderman? "Gone", according to her, both to Lucy (?) and Jonas.
    The book? They've had that for weeks. No need to wait.

    So, what is it? What is the mysterious element of Sarah's master plan that is conveniently unmentioned and unshown, but absolutely explains why she just idled around fighting her bosses instead of doing her job for two years?

    Oh, and I'd also like you to explain how I'm cherry-picking here.

    @the last anonymous:
    If you picked something up that quite obviously wasn't defined, you might just be insane. I'd have that checked. ;)



    Also, let me say one thing: Ridiculous claims without proof are one thing. Muting the opposition when you're losing is just cowardly and weak. You have no proof for this shit. That's obvious to anyone reading your posts. There is no logical explanation for Sarah's delay. That's the problem. But just admit that, or shut up. Don't try to make it look like you won by not allowing me to reply.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Crap...see, that's what you get for locking the comments...the wrong post goes through.

    Important parts being, you still lack any sort of evidence, canon information is canon information, no matter what my initial source was, and you're cowards for locking the comments.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Anon did you watch the original lonelygirl15 series?

    ReplyDelete
  33. Some interesting discussion here. Just remember the "respect online" campaign. No matter how passionate or correct you are about a point there is a probably a human at the other end of your comment (or in a few cases a bot) . That said, it is great to see how well people know the details of the series and the debate certainly provokes some "thought".

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  34. Guys, Glenn Rubenstein created the character of Sarah. On one of his radio shows, he announced the original outline for the character. She was not originally intended to be evil. What has happened since then is, of course, up for debate, but I just wanted to point out that Sarah was absolutely not evil from the beginning.

    ReplyDelete
  35. I love at least one anonymous poster in this round.

    Guess which one it is.

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  36. Ahhh, good point anon, I remember that show and we probably have a record of it somewhere. Sarah has been kinda a ping pong ball for a long time but at least at the point of origin she was probably not evil.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Thank you MM. There are so many issues here that bear discussing, but I do not have the endurance for an epic Renegade post.

    Michiev you are to be commended for going through each video the way you did. That shows much more dedication than I am willing to give, but I am among those who feel that the arguments that I did have the patience to read were flawed at least in part.

    The issue at hand is not whether Sarah is evil or not. After all, Hello McFly she's announced it, boldly, brazenly, more than once. The concern is next season once Jonas and Maggie are freed and they need Sarah to be good again, how will we be asked to accept that she is not evil? You can cite as many references as you like, however the fact remains they seemed determined up until the 11th hour to vacillate on the "Sarah is evil" issue. Given past experience we may be asked to make this stretch of belief again, either for Sarah, or for another character. For each point a counter point can be made, but the Creators have continuity more confused than Hawkman's in many cases.

    It’s not about not watching the show for two years, or not seeing things the same way that other people do. This isn’t a question of who’s stupid, who has an axe to grind, and that’s what too much in this community gets reduced to. This is about how many plot holes are we willing to accept, how many retcons (yes kids this is a retcon, a retroactive change to the continuity we were supposed to accept as gospel) are we willing to endure? For some sick reason I do like this show, which is why so many of us ask questions and demand answers that in many cases never come. This is why we want to understand.

    (By all means yell at me, argue me, post ugly things to me anonymously. That is the biggest thing in all of this I fail to understand. If you are proud enough to argue, be proud enough to argue in your own name rather than hide.)

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  38. Here's my interpretation:

    Sarah's motivations for working for the Order in LG15 are DIFFERENT than her motivations for working fot the Order in LG15:TR.

    In "We're Screwed," we learned that (during LG15) Sarah was working for the Order in order to protect her sister, Taylor, from their father. Sarah was conflicted, so she tried to fight the Order in small ways while still working for them to protect Taylor (eg. dropping the papers in the water during season one). This explains why Sarah's actions seem to conflict - she was trying to fight the Order, but had to maintain the illusion (to the Order and to her father) that she was infiltrating TAAG.

    Between LG15 and TR, though, several things happened. Daniel, Sarah's longtime love interest, left her (and TAAG). Also, Taylor was put into hiding and was safe - thus, Sarah's father could no longer use Taylor as blackmail to keep Sarah working for the Order. Thus, they stepped it up - if she could turn over Jonas (and Maggie, who is, by this point, out of the hands of both LBL and the Order), she would become an Elder.

    Sarah, still bitter with Daniel, takes them up on their offer and spends the last three months working to capture Jonas and Maggie. Of course, the date of her ascension - which, IIRC, are based around moon cycles and can only be done at certain times - would be the date on which she'd want to turn Jonas and Maggie over to the Order.

    ---

    Both sides bring up good points, but I don't feel that Sarah's evilness really contradicts what we've seen previously. It just says something about her personality, and also about her internal conflict during LG15 (but not during TR).

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  39. Perhaps we could look at Sarah's core personality profile and see which characteristics make her prone towards evil and why. That is if you agree with the assertion that wanting to live for ever at the expense of others is evil. It seems to me like Sarah is just a very selfish individual.

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  40. Rekidk, the only issue is the video footage (and the SUV rental) puts Sarah killing Beaumont at LAST November. Its the small inconsistencies like this that make many of us have issue, and the fact that her monologue made it sound like this was her motivation all along, negating last seasons motivation.

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  41. Interesting point jazmyn. That is the thing with this stuff. The devil is in the details so to speak.

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  42. It really doesn't make much sense that Sarah was evil all along. She said she was approached by the Order but not when. If I had the time or the inclination I'd see if it were feasible if they started working on her when she was with the Lullaby project or soon after.

    -immo

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  43. THIS IS AN ANONYMOUS COMMENT!!!!

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  44. i realize that Glenn had the idea for Sarah, and taylor.. well there was a girl named Molly, i dont think there was actually a taylor. i dont know where Glenn wanted to go with Sarah, but i do know he had an outline of her. By the time she was on the show he wasn't even working with the team anymore.

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  45. The fact that they continued with the same character would seem to imply that whoever she was created to be had some sort of purpose and at least at that stage they continued down that path to some degree.

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  46. Sarah always seems to have been a bit random and unpredictable. They one thing that is clear is that she does not care about anyone but herself.

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  47. thats obvious, i mean the way she just hurt jonas .. after TWO YEARS without any remorse.

    how good of an actor is sarah
    and what the heck happened to her to make her so dayum craazzyyy

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  48. So I'm too tired and lazy to read all the debate (I've read like half of it and I've seen plenty of it all the forums).

    Character has always been selfish and her motives have always been ambigious. Maybe when Glenn dreamed up the character it wasn't evil, but the thing about writing: Sometimes characters take on lives of their own and do things that you would never expect.

    I write stories, just for myself for fun, and the characters often surprise even me. When I participated in NanoWriMo I was surprised to learn that this happens to most writers.

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  49. I'm not going to bother reading any of this, because I don't care. But I've noticed LG15 has a lot of fans that are really into the story. One thing I've always thought is a missed opportunity is to use BreeFM for debates like this. You get two people with completely different opinions and have them debate it live. Of course with this crowd you'd need a moderator to keep things flowing.

    I've never understood why someone hasn't used BreeFM to have an LG15 plot hole debate. It would be great radio.

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  50. MM said: "It seems to me like Sarah is just a very selfish individual."

    I think that's the core issue. Ultimately, Sarah only cares about herself. That's why she is willing to betray people, switch sides, etc.

    jazmyngrey said: "Rekidk, the only issue is the video footage (and the SUV rental) puts Sarah killing Beaumont at LAST November."

    This is true. However, she still could've been working with the Order SOLELY for Taylor's benefit at that point. There's nothing to say that she was DEFINITELY working towards her 'Elder-ship' at that point, so-to-speak. Maggie was important to the Order (and thus to Sarah, who was blackmailed by the Order/her father) way back in November, regardless of Sarah's motivations at that point.

    This is a good discussion! You guys have a lot of excellent points.

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  51. sorry about turning the comments off MM :(

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  52. @Rekidk: The problem with that is, if she was only doing the Maggie/Beaumont thing to protect Taylor, then she could have mentioned it at any point after Here's The Deal established that Taylor (and her mom) are safe.
    If you were correct, and she was again with the Order at that point, the easiest way to get both Jonas and Maggie would have been to mention the escape.

    The HymnOfNone knew Jonas's location. Sarah should have recognized Maggie. She could have spoken up, said "Listen, the Order forced me to do bad things while they blackmailed me....I know that girl..."

    That would of course have sparked Maggie's interest, she would have gone to meet Sarah to hear about Beaumont's fate and Sarah could have said "I'll tell you, but I want to meet Jonas - I want to convince him to fight!" - again, Maggie would have liked that idea (she wants Jonas to fight, after all), and would have led Sarah straight to Jonas. At that point, Sarah would have both Jonas and Maggie at the same, known location. A week after The Resistance started. One call to her Blond Boss, and her job would have been done. Eternal life for one week of talking and a phone call. A bargain.

    Instead, she opted to risk that Maggie recognizes her at the wrong moment, ignored that Maggie had the information she wanted (Jonas's location), played along with the "Fight the Order!" game for three months, and "almost got [her] ass shot off", to use her own words.

    It's the same thing as before - it's a retcon, so obviously, some things match up, time-wise. I admit the timing they chose for the Beaumont-killing was chosen wisely. But that doesn't change that Sarah's behavior in general makes no sense at all, if you assume she's evil and wants to capture Maggie and Jonas.
    She simply ignores too many good chances to believe that was her goal "all along".


    I'll give you another one, just for fun and to demonstrate just how many there are:
    When Reed got a phone call in the park, we learned in the next video that Sarah and Jonas had been caught and jailed.
    We also know from the original series and from the Salinas-plot that the Order controls at least parts of the law enforcement.
    We also know that Jonas (all of them) are wanted by the FBI.
    We also know that Sarah has her usual one phone call, and the fact that either of them called Reed proves they got it.

    What does all of that mean? Simple. The grand prize is Jonas. Getting Jonas means eternal life. Jonas is jailed next to her, so he can't run, and she has one phone call.
    How does one gain eternal life out of that?
    Simple - call Lucy.
    Lucy would have shown up in nice FBI attire, waved around the papers for Jonas's and Sarah's arrest, and the police would have willingly surrendered the two into her custody. Jonas was jailed, unarmed and surrounded by police. No way to run, no way to fight. A simple catch, again through a single phone call.

    Afterwards, Lucy would -of course- have set Sarah free, Sarah could have told Reed and Maggie some fairy tale about Lucy showing up and capturing Jonas, and lured them both into a trap under the guise of trying to free Jonas.
    Bam, she also has Maggie.

    Again, a simple operation. She had Jonas in a situation where he couldn't escape, and she had everything she needed to finish her job - one phone call.
    And yet, she did nothing. Ultra-evil Sarah whose supposedly sole goal in life at that point was capturing Jonas forewent the perfect chance to do exactly that.

    Her behavior simply doesn't match what we're supposed to believe.

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  53. Random theory of the day: Sarah's been in love with Jonas all along, used Daniel and Reed to try to make him jealous. When it didn't work she went all bunny boiling woman scorned and turned evil.

    The devil as was said earlier is in the details, as is all things with this continuity. The issue I have is how long has Sarah been evil? Has she been evil from the beginning? We have conflicting accounts of this. We know that at inception Sarah was not evil. We know that we regard all people with an eye of suspicion as they enter the show. We can still pull out statements from the beginning to make Daniel sound suspect or to make Jonas sound suspect. Basically everyone is suspect until proven otherwise and we can always find statements to prove and disprove our various points depending on how deeply we wish to look.

    If Sarah was evil from the beginning why bother with the black mail story? If she truly was black mailed to protect her family she would still be intrinsically good and I can see her maybe renting the car but not gleefully participating in murder.

    If she was evil all along, barring the already given argument of why she didn't turn the gang in earlier, (which seems valid to me) why come up with the blackmail story at all? Why did she and her father have the heated discussion they had during the season 3 finale? If it was an elaborate cover for her evil and she was never blackmailed did her father know that she was cutting ahead of him to become an elder?

    I agree with Joe who said that we could have an excellent plot hole debate, however it would need to be highly controlled and I don't think this community has the control for that, particularly if you look at any live chat or the now live "event" with the creators as an example. Not to mention the fact that too often we are too brutal to each other and attack people rather than ideas. In theory good idea, in action... probably not so much.

    As for the raging Sarah debate that started this all my questions remain the same. It does appear that this was an attempt to cover previously convoluted story telling.

    Personally I think Reed is going to open the door wider, Daniel is going to be having coffee with Bree who has been alive all this time, under Daniel's protection which is why he did not remain involved with this season, he was protecting Bree. Wouldn't that cause a load of shit to retcon ;)

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  54. Joe I love your idea of having debates on breefm.

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  55. No prob michiev. Your post really got people thinking so while a little heated at times I think people are enjoying the various insights regarding the writing. It might even help the writers better understand where the fans are at in terms of character development and going forward I think that will be even more important than ever.

    The idea of the "respect online" campaign is to remind everyone that we are not just anonymous names and we need to be mindful of that. When communicating online that is more important than ever. I know there are times I have had to adjust my circuits and I am sure that is no less true for humans.

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  56. joe + jenlight. that would be cool

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  57. I agree with the theory that Sarah isn't evil (even though she said she is) and that she is just selfish.
    But in Lg15 she was resentful about being a spy, probably because even though she is a selfish person she would not want to see harm come to her mother and sister.
    In The Resistance i think that like Daniel said he left her to the order, after lg15 she was alone with no certain future so she was offered an opportunity by the order and she took it. Her motives could be greed, resent at being abandoned by the rest of TAAG and jealously of the attention not paid to her by Jonas.
    But the fact is that in both series her betray created plot holes, but the plot hole are created in LG15 more than in LG15: Resistance history. I think it is to do with timing, revealing her true intention at the right time. When she revealed it they had everything, Maggie, Jonas, the cure (if it exists) the book and Dr Alderman (though he had escaped when they got back to the car, but i'm guessing that was unplanned). You can ask why now and say not in the first few weeks of the resistance, like i said when she did reveal they had everything. They may not have know where the book was or the cure and used the resistance to find these things for them and then take them once they have it all. This is all theory and guess work and it would be great if the writers went to some length to at least try and explain these things.
    Also an interesting plot hole, in the prom it seemed that the order his squad were gearing up to shoot him. With jonas being the key, why would they kill something so valuable?

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  58. Prom is the only problem that I see with this whole storyline. Why kill Jonas? He was on the hit list, but maybe only select people within the Order knew about his trait positivity. Or maybe it was a theory, or something people were talking about but they had no evidence. It seems unlikely that his parents ever let the Order get their hands on him to test his blood.

    I just went back and looked, and it was after prom that they kidnapped Jonas and presumably ran tests that confirmed his trait + status. It wasn't until after Lucy and "Dangerous Injection" that the Order started referring to him as "The One" and this whole storyline started.

    I know this doesn't perfectly solve that problem, because Sarah implied the Order knew all along. But Sarah is only 20, she wasn't around then so maybe she's just exaggerating or misstating the facts.

    KindredPhantom I totally agree with you about Daniel and about Sarah's selfish nature.

    With the Resistance they didn't promise to fill all the plot holes from LG15 because they said that would never be possible, but they would try to fill the plotholes of the new series as they went. And I think they sucessfully did that.

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  59. With the Resistance they didn't promise to fill all the plot holes from LG15 because they said that would never be possible

    Where di they say that? I must see!

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  60. I don't remember Jen. I just remember that when they announced the new series I think they admitted it would never be possible to fill all the plotholes in LG15.

    I wish my memory worked better now.

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  61. What does it say about the number of plot holes in a series when the creators of the series can't fix the plot holes they've created?

    As frustrated as I get sometimes, and as derogatory as I sound I still enjoy the show on some sick level. You can call this whatever you want but at its core it still relies heavily the original show. I understand they can't fill every plot hole, but not opening too many new ones would be helpful. If they don't it will make us more likely to challenge the many plot holes that have come before it, and make us more wary in the future. After all Sarah didn't just betray Jonas and the gang, she betrayed all of us.

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  62. just catching up after being AFK for a few days -- but i must chime in to say that the BreeFM debate idea is awesome.

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