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Saturday, June 7, 2008

The "why Gina is still alive" thread

by Renegade
on Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:33 pm

Jonas said "I don't feel a pulse!". Several people have openly criticized the way he tried to take the pulse, he was in a hurry, and the pulse may just have been weak. Jonas is not medical personnel. This alone is not proof Gina was dead. In fact, one would assume if the group itself, including Jonas himself, had taken Jonas's assessment as proof, they would all have accepted Gina as dead by the time they posted their videos. The fact that they apparently consider Gina's footage proof only shows that they themselves did not take Jonas's problems to feel a pulse as proof of her death.

One could argue that, if the TAAG thought Gina might still be alive, they would not have left her behind - but, on the other hand, do you think they would have left her dead body behind, unless they had to? Dead people can't carry bodies, no matter live or dead. They all knew they would be dead if they stayed. They had no choice but to flee quickly, leaving her behind.

Salinas said "I brought you a gift, brought to us by our new [?] Carl here. I present to you, Lord Carruthers: Footage. Proof that one of our enemies has fallen.". Three things weird/of note about that scene:
Most obviously, he does not specify "Gina", although both he and the Elder would very most likely know her name - especially if Salinas knows them well enough to hide "TAAG" on his website.
The Elder did not take the footage. When the Elder left Carl and Salinas, Carl still had Gina's footage, which shows Gina going down. Point being: If Gina's footage was supposed to be the evidence footage, why did the Elder not take it with him? This leaves the possibility open that the evidence footage is Sarah's footage (or something else, maybe shot by Carl or other Order members after the TAAG left), not Gina's, and that Carl retrieved the other footage for personal reasons, for example to show the TAAG that he was very conflicted about his decision.
The fact that video is used as evidence in the first place. Let's mentally go through the events:
Order-SWAT stormed the place. Daniel says they cleaned up the place afterwards. It is reasonable to assume the SWAT team did not leave before the Cleaners arrived. Thus, Salinas knows the TAAG did not remove Gina's body, simply because the area was under Order control. We also know that, 'cause they would have told us if they had Gina's dead body.
BUT if nobody removed Gina's body, if she was really dead, the Order, and thus Salinas, should be in possession of her body. (Because it would have been left at the house, and the Order controlled the house and cleaned it up)
...so why doesn't he show it to the Elder? Why does he praise the puny little video that is only half-evidence (showing her go down, but not showing wounds or blood), if he should have her dead body in the fridge?
The only logical explanation is that he doesn't have a dead body. Assuming the area was SWAT-controlled, Gina could also not have fled if she awoke later.
The only explanation remaining for Salinas's behavior is that he captured Gina alive. Whether he's using the footage of her to prove her death anyway, or he's proving Sarah is dead to the Elder, is immaterial to that - if Gina was dead, Salinas could show Carruthers her corpse. He doesn't. That only makes sense if he doesn't have it. And that means, she is alive.
(Counter-argumentation could be "Then why doesn't he show live Gina to him?". I acknowledge that question and I have no answer. However, given that we, to my knowledge, have no proof of Dr. Hart's demise either, it's possible he put the two back together, revived the Hart Study, and is planning to secretly build is own army of trait-positive girls, without the other Elders' knowledge.)

Lastly, as mentioned above, no matter what Salinas says, the video is not "proof" at all. We see Gina fall down, yes. But we do not see blood, and neither do we see wounds. It's entirely possible she was simply knocked unconscious. In fact, given that there is no smoke visible in the post-raid footage, Daniel's idea of a "smoke bomb" going off is clearly false. However, from the sounds and the camera shaking, we know something did go off. Did I mention there exist concussion- and stun grenades?

Let me finish by stating quite clearly that I am not denying the possibility that Gina is dead - but given episodes like The Unthinkable Happened, where the question of if somebody was dead, and, if yes, who, was clouded as well and only resolved later, and the very persistent course of the Creators not to make a definite statement in any way, shape or form, I think jumping to conclusions and assuming Gina is dead, with so many details not fitting, is just unreasonable.

That's my opinion. What's yours? Did you notice more details not fitting? Can you disprove my points? What's your take on the "Gina's dead!" claim?

Join the discussion:



  1. Or, we just use Occam's Razor: Like with everything else, the Creators rush the follow-through, and like to keep from making any definite statements to keep users speculating and clicking on their site.

  2. Michelle Clore called out an Order hit on several members of TAAG in the video "What Is She Saying?"

    The Order's operatives have (almost always) been portrayed as inept, bumbling fools. They are clearly incapable of hitting their targets.

    Ergo, Gina MUST still be alive.

  3. Oh, and I forgot to add the fact that a politician was attempting to convince someone that Gina was dead.

    More positive proof that she is alive.

  4. The timing of the reported Michelle Clore suicide was oddly close to the deadly prom given that Clore was the on who made the video promising ascenion. It seems Carruthers is on board with that offer... though the relationship between Clore and Carruthers is not clear.

    From a plot point of view, the fact of the offer of ascension as a reward for killing a member of TAAG is a bit of an ultimatum story-wise. How can this conflict be resolved? To end the offer, either it must be rescinded by the Order (possible, but why would they?) or one of TAAG must be killed or the Order must be entirely destroyed (not possible without ending the story). There seemed to be an implication that TAAG only had to eliminate Salinas to end it, but Clore's offer was to any Order member. My point in bringing this up is that it implies to me that the Creators have been planning to kill off a character for some time, and that was why Clore made the offer.

    One lingering source of doubt comes from the missing Sarah. Is it possible that after the others left the cabin (and the Order raiding party chased after them), that Sarah came out of hiding and rescued Gina? Maybe the same vet that patched up Jonas so efficiently is having a go at Gina's gunshot wound.

  5. As much as i'd like this to be true the argument for her being alive seems weak and desperate. Clutching at straws is what comes to mind.

  6. You can't prove murder without a body...

    No body of Gina.. no proof she's dead.

  7. Alas, I think in lg if they say she's dead, she's dead.

    Though I would love to see some of the ideas above used, in that they just have Gina captured, and that she's not dead.

    Sadly, I know some people wouldn't even be satisfied with that, and would brand the prom "anticlimatic" and a let down.

    But yeah. I'm all Pro-Alive Gina.

  8. I think if Gina was still alive then the point of the prom theme: "It's to die for" would be the big plot hole, sorrytosay. It wasn't TAAG telling us someone's going to die, it was the creators.


  9. this would all be great...if the creators haven't blatently said "Yeah... she's dead."

  10. When did they blatantly say she was dead...? And it's still possible that Sarah is the one to die rather than Gina. Not that I am hoping Sarah is dead or anything. I think I prefer Gina over Sarah. I don't feel close to Gina.

  11. i remember when the actor who played dr. hart posted on his own blog that, essentially, dr. hart had been killed off. then soon after it was changed, undoubtedly at the behest of the creators, to suggest he may have lived.

    considering that sherlock holmes was revived after a story that was intended to make him undoubtedly dead, anything is possible.

    if renegade wants to say she isn't dead, that's fine with me.

  12. Its Positively tolerable bookmarking concerning tomorrow's reference.


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