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Saturday, July 5, 2008

Re: ZOMG: The End is Nigh!

by ApotheosisAZ

on Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:17 am

"In August, we will relaunch LG15.com as a full-functioning social network with profile pages, chat, forums, comment boards, blogs, groups, and other tools. In the future, we will be integrating third party sites such as YouTube and Twitter into the platform so that you can manage your accounts from LG15.com as well as import your videos, photos, and messaging into your profile pages.}

This is a statement that they will no longer allow fan submitted videos on the main page at LG15 after this "relaunch."

The C's aren't even pretending to put off their vaunted promise of making LG15.com a haven of interactivity. They are cleverly stating that they are removing the weak crap they currently claim is interactive. Even if they do allow "future" video imports to their site, they are stepping back from their promises.

They aren't adding shiny new buttons. They're announcing that they intend to step back from the stuff they already had.



  1. "This is a statement that they will no longer allow fan submitted videos on the main page at LG15 after this 'relaunch.'"

    That is a lie. Plain and simple.
    Either that, or the gayliens experimented so often with Apo that he can't distinguish lg15.com from lg15.com/lonelygirl15.

    The statement in question says they will relaunch lg15.com as a social network. Nothing is said about the future of what we see as the "main page", or the root page of lg15.com

    And even if Apo is right - so what?
    "OMFG my response isn't on the main page!!1oneleven!!"
    When was a fan submitted response that was displayed in the tiny little box on the main page ever significant? Hell, how many people even care for/watch them?

    If there are promises broken, there should be promises shown. Generally crying "they are breaking their promises!!!" is just ridiculous. Especially considering that Apo himself declares the current implementation "weak crap" - what is the logic in saying the current version sucks, and then declaring the changed version sucks, before the change was even done? Either you want it changed, or not. If you do want it changed, criticize the change once the change was done, not months in advance on basis of a generic press release.

    If there were promises made, link them. Show them. Confront the Creators with previous posts. Generally claiming they promised something different is worth nothing.
    Besides, if I read the sentence correctly, the promise was "making LG15.com a haven of interactivity" - how exactly does the announcement say this will not happen? lg15.com is lg15.com. Unless this mysterious promise specifically stated "all your stuff will be on the lonelygirl15 main page!", they seem to be well on their way to do exactly what they promised.

    There are enough reasons to glare at the Creators these days. There is no reason to artificially create a new one. If you can link to a promise that directly contradicts their announced plans, then do so.
    If not, you should delay the bitching until after it's done.

    The statement speaks of lg15.com. There are no video responses on the lg15.com root page right now. The statement does not list the planned features of either the lonelygirl15 main page or the lg15.com root page. As such, no statement is made about the future of the current main pages. Taking into account that lg15 will end anyway, thus making its main page useless and taking away any video one could reply to in the first place, I can't help but think that this is a calculated (weak) attempt to stir up controversy.

    Apo's "interpretation" of the statement lacks a basis. There is no proof for the alleged prior promises, and he's crying about features that will be obsolete anyway - not because the Creators relauch them away, but because you can't reply to a series that doesn't exist.

    This is not news-worthy.

  2. http://www.lonelygirl15.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=193047&#p193047

    Here ya go, Renegade. I have a legitimate basis for what I post at the cove.

    You seem rather hasty in your lengthy condemnation of others. I have the brevity and wit to just point out that the C's did once promise these types of things to foster participation at their site.

  3. Let me be the first to complain about the color scheme of the new site. I'm sure someone will hate it, but I complained about it first.

  4. I heard that it will be Orange.


  5. Uhm? So I went to the link and the only thing the Creators posted was:
    "When we redesign then website there will be a community voting system so the best stories float to the top and the best fan storylines are recognized."

    Nothing about fan videos on the main page. Just that they're will be voting for them. Am I missing something?

  6. I don't see it either. Nothing in that statement says to me "We are stepping back from what we already have."

  7. @Apo: So.......?
    As the poster above points out, that "promise" (I see no promise there) says nothing about fan videos on either main- or root page. Not to mention there are no promises of a "haven of interactivity" or anything there - all they're promising is a voting system. Every cheap CMS has that.

    Not to mention that, as visible by the posting date here-> http://www.lonelygirl15.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=12521 , if anything, that was a "promise" they already "broke" one year ago. To pretend that promise was new and applied to this relaunch is ridiculous. If you want to complain about them not adding a voting plugin to their site, go back to last year and complain.

    There is no promise in that post.
    The post, if anything, speaks about the previous redesign.
    Even if it applied to this relaunch, the "promise" makes no statement on videos on the main page.

    I fail to see how those few lines are a basis for your wild claims.

  8. Hmmmm, rather than arguing over what was promised and whether Apo's assumptions are correct about the future site, how about discussing how YOU would like the new site to function? Beta testing is a good time to put in requests for changes in functionality.

  9. I guess I could just drop this and go vote on which fan videos I think are the best at LG15's site. Maybe my vote will make one of the best fan submitted storylines rise to the top.

    Wait, no I can't. That system hasn't been implemented. Never mind.

    I'm not suggesting that the C's were lying when they wrote that.

    I'm not even suggesting that it was a good idea for them to suggest they were planning to include such a community voting system.

    I am suggesting that the C's announced that such a system would be implemented, and then they did not deliver.

    I guess we'll see who is right in October. I've been wrong before.

  10. My point is not whether you are potentially right or wrong. My point is that

    a) your main premise that "This is a statement that they will no longer allow fan submitted videos on the main page at LG15 after this 'relaunch.'" is simply wrong, and
    b) you are claiming they are "stepping back" from promises, while both failing to produce the promises in question as well as failing to show where the announcement says these promises are going to be broken.

    LG15 Today is the primary independent news source of the community. If the leading post on it implies the Creators are lying, backstabbing bastards, without any proof, that's an issue that has to be addressed.

  11. Renegade, you know I have no problem debating with you.

    There will not be fan submitted videos at that page. The C's are stating that the relaunch will not include that capability. They are suggesting that will be available in the "future."

    I gave you a reference to a capabilty that had also been promised in a "future" revamp of the site; one that never materialized.

    Like I said before, we'll see.

  12. I interpreted that segment that same way that Apo did. That a reader doesn't come to the conclusion that the author intended it's the fault of the author, not the reader. The fact that there is confusion means the statement is not clear. We just don't know what this means for submitted videos. Oh and btw the reason why the videos in the right column of the site never became significant is because not enough was done to make them significant.

    renegade to be honest you are not the one to be speaking on what promises may or not have been broken. You don't know what has been said in PM or email. There was even a chat organized between Miles and the content creators who contribute community video. Apo is being generous IMO.

  13. Over the past 2 years, lots of promises were made both publicly and in private to UGC creators. Anyone who cares looking for threads addressing the UGC question will find plenty. Renegade doesn't care watching the videos in the tiny box on the main page, but he doesn't care reading the forums either.

    Just for the sake of History, following:


    several UGC creators were invited to discuss with Miles. It is not mine to report here what was said semi-privately during this chat, however, everyone in the chat room that day knows how wrong Renegade is. Promises were made, promises were broken.

    "That is a lie". Well, Renegade, you're not lying, you're just plain and simply ignorant on this question, which makes perfect sense since you don't care for UGC.

    BTW, Modelmotion, who runs this primary independent news source of the community, knows perfectly about all this. You should ask him to enlighten you.

  14. I have to agree with Renegade here. If you're going to say they broke a promise, you really should point to the promise they made. Also saying your going to implement something while you're in the development phase isn't a promise. Just look at every release of Microsoft Windows. There were a lot of things in each version that were mentioned during development that never made it to the final release. Not because they lied (although they do lie) but because they were unable to implement it for whatever reason.

    Normally I'm all for bashing the creators, it's fun. But I'm in the middle of writing a program and have to leave out some of the features because there isn't enough time to put it in. Did I lie when I said I could put those features in, no. Things happen, there are delays, you have to make sacrifices to get the program out and working. Those added features if not necessary should not delay the release.


    Sorry, that last sentence was for my boss.

    OK, back to work.

  15. @Apo: As I have mentioned before, for one, I see no "promise" in that post - it was a statement that ultimately turned out not be true to the facts, however, it's nothing special that the featureset of a software project changes within 4 months.
    There is a difference between originally planning certain features and then being caught by reality, and specific promises. That planned features are dropped before a release happens to every bigger software project, everywhere. It's nothing special. To say "We will have feature X" four months before the site is actually finished, at a point where no one, not even the Creators, could have known what will end up in the final version, does not equal, in any way, the statement "I promise you that, from now on until the end of time, you will have UGC votes on lg15.com!".

    Either way, that "promise" was for the previous redesign - even if you opt to see it as a promise, it was not a promise for this relaunch, and, as such, that post is no proof that they are breaking any promises with their concept.

    In addition to that, I feel the need to, once more, point out something that -I thought- should be very obvious to you: There are no fan submitted videos on the lg15.com "main page". There are 5 rectangles, 3 logos and a copyright notice.

    Not having submission capability on lg15.com is not a change.
    As I have also mentioned, KM is over, lonelygirl15 will be over. So there will not be any video be posted on either page you could reply to. As such, even if they keep the fan submission function working in that section, it will be useless. To be up in arms about not being able to interact with lonelygirl15 due to a lack of site features, when there is no lonelygirl15 to interact with in the first place, is just ridiculous.

    Moreso, you are simply misstating what is being said, again. The part in question is "In the future, we will be integrating third party sites such as YouTube and Twitter into the platform so that you can manage your accounts from LG15.com as well as import your videos, photos, and messaging into your profile pages.". Nothing in that states anything about the capability to reply to videos posted on hypothetical future "main pages". They are purely stating that it will be possible to import your stuff to your profile page. In the future.

    @AnthonyDe: That is not my problem, though. If he claims promises were broken, he should prove promises were made in the first place, and that they actually are being broken.
    If he can't do that, then he has to accept that someone's pointing out the lack of supporting evidence.

    @anonymous: All I'm seeing is that you, as well, shy away from linking specific posts or quoting specific statements. All I'm seeing is that you make more unproven claims. If it's all there, and I'm just too ignorant to know about it, it should be easy for you to provide links to specific promises made about the functionality of the site. Or, since "everyone in the chat room that day knows how wrong Renegade is", how about you name some names?

    Then again, you don't even have the balls to reveal your own...

  16. "Then again, you don't even have the balls to reveal your own..."

    Let me guess, you're 12y old?
    Well, have fun!


  17. Renegade, I said I don't have a problem debating with you. I do have a problem with quibbling over minutiae.

    Very well, the current location of the UGC isn't on the page http://www.lg15.com/

    I never really said it was, but you chose to latch onto that and spin it. You and I both know that I'm refering to the Comments page for LG15 and the tiny strip of UGC videos located there.

    It was suggested by the C's that it would become more than just a little strip of video links, and my posted link from the forum does demonstrate that.

    I will also restate: the C's post clearly lists the planned functions for the new relaunched site. It then separately announces that user video capability is a future development.

    Clearly, I'm not the only person who has ever submitted UGC who interpreted their post this way.

  18. But that is exactly my point - you are referring to the page redirected to from lonelygirl15.com - lg15.com/lonelygirl15.
    They make no direct specification of changes to any sub-site. They are talking about lg15.com, not lg15.com/lonelygirl15. As such, you have no basis of knowing if they plan to change lg15.com/lonelygirl15 at all, and, if so, how these changes will look like.

    To underline that point, look at the language: "we have been working to rebuild the LG15 website." - "a new LG15 Universe show" - "in the LG15 storyline that picks up where lonelygirl15 and KateModern left off" - "we will relaunch LG15.com". They are clearly making a difference between "LG15" and "lonelygirl15". So both by common usage of terms, as well as URLs, the Creators are not explicitly referring to the Lonelygirl15 main page. You are complaining about changes to the Lonelygirl15 main site, while the Creators talk about changes to lg15.com.
    That is a difference.

    In addition to that, you are ignoring that there is no need to implement interactive features for a series that cannot be interacted with, because it has ended. Even if they take away lonelygirl15's interactive features - what would you use them for? Submit 10000 video replies to the series finale?

    @anonymous: Thank you for underlining my point.

  19. "Also saying your going to implement something while you're in the development phase isn't a promise. Just look at every release of Microsoft Windows. There were a lot of things in each version that were mentioned during development that never made it to the final release. Not because they lied (although they do lie) but because they were unable to implement it for whatever reason."

    This is one of the most idiotic statements I've ever read. I hope I don't need to explain why.

    "Did I lie when I said I could put those features in, no. Things happen, there are delays, you have to make sacrifices to get the program out and working. Those added features if not necessary should not delay the release."

    Ok that one topped it. I feel bad for you Microshaft apologists, with your low expectations and used to being promised all the bells and whistles and finding it was all vaporware.

    Now, I don't expect any better from MS, that modus operandi is ingrained in their business model: over-promise and under-deliver, cha-ching. But it's hard to see how the same mediocre standards should be so happily applied to all software development, when there are so many companies out there that deliver a high quality product, with timely releases and bug fixes, and without having to break so many promises.

    It's a very sad day when a monopoly like Windows is given such a free pass with Vista, but it's really depressing when the same crap is justified about a whole industry.

    I suggest you seek psychological help. The problem you have is commonly called Stockholm syndrome, aka trauma-bonding or bonding-to-the-perpetrator. Hope someday you're able to get back your health.

  20. If you are as representative of the UGC community as you would like to appear in your original post, it's no wonder the Creators are less interested in UGC.

    Random insults in off-topic rants do not prove your point.

  21. Renegade, you're either extremely stupid or acting it to get attention, but I'm leaning to the first possibility.

    "In addition to that, you are ignoring that there is no need to implement interactive features for a series that cannot be interacted with, because it has ended. Even if they take away lonelygirl15's interactive features - what would you use them for? Submit 10000 video replies to the series finale?"

    Ok, I guess I'll state the obvious just so you don't say I'm making vague and generic claims. APO IS TALKING ABOUT INTERACTIVITY FOR THE UPCOMING SERIES, NOT lonelygirl15.

  22. "Random insults in off-topic rants do not prove your point."

    What are you talking about?

  23. "If you are as representative of the UGC community as you would like to appear in your original post, it's no wonder the Creators are less interested in UGC.

    Random insults in off-topic rants do not prove your point."

    You're talking to another anonymous poster. Not the one who's made the first post.


  24. You all are idiots. Shut up and let the Creators do their thing. You're pissing on a parade that hasn't even begun yet. I normally love to bash the show because of bad production quality, but now you're harping on things that haven't even come out yet. There comes a point when you can cross the fine line between intelligent criticism and mindless bitching... stop bitching and whining, and at least GIVE them a chance to update the site before you start complaining.

  25. "You're talking to another anonymous poster. Not the one who's made the first post."

    Thanks for the clarification Anonymous. Still, it's not clear to me what he's referring to as off-topic rants and insults from my comment. Can you help me with that?

  26. Just keep on going as you do, guys. It helps me more than you will ever know.

    From Apo: "Very well, the current location of the UGC isn't on the page http://www.lg15.com/" (emphasis added)
    ...I assume he is speaking of the current location of the future UGC, then? On the site for lonelygirl15, while KM clearly proved that new series get new sites?

    Either you're the confused one of us two, or you just strengthened my position ad infinitum.

    If you are right - what do invisible promises about lonelygirl15's interactivity have to do with the interactivity of the new series?

    Did they even say the new series will be interactive yet?

  27. Why don't you prove there were promises about the site's features delivered in the first place?

  28. Renegade, your passionless argument is just an excercise in semantics.

    You do have a valid point in suggesting that there will no longer be a need for the UGC contributors because you seem to have some foreknowledge of the future level of interactivity for the next series.

    That's because the C's are clearly stepping back the level of involvement to which fans will be encouraged to aspire. I know you can actually see that, but you choose to jump on me hastily and rather harshly.

    Those of us who have been subjected to your tirades here and at the LGPedia have come to expect this, so it isn't really something that bothers me.

  29. Maybe because you're the only one ignoring it so we don't need to.

  30. "Did they even say the new series will be interactive yet?"

    Bingo, and it took you all this wasted space and energy and CPU cycles to finally get what Apo was saying, right from the beginning.

    In the recent quote you just emphasized he did refer to the current UGC location because you kept insisting on it. I believe you forgot to quote where he characterized that as "quibbling over minutiae."

  31. Nice attempt to try to paint this as a personal attack purely for fun, but the fact stands that your main premise is false, and that you have yet to prove any promises were either made or broken.

  32. "...but the fact stands that your main premise is false, and that you have yet to prove any promises were either made or broken."

    The fact stands that you have not proven Apo's main premise as false, and you have yet to prove you have indeed read the links provided, or if you did, that you are capable of inductive reasoning or reading comprehension.

  33. Apparently, you have not been reading along. The quote Apo uses does not reference the "main page" in any way, shape, or form.
    As such, the claim the statement would make any predication about the future feature set of the main page is clearly false.

    It's like quoting "Bob likes cars" and then saying "This statement clearly shows Bob hates bicycles!".

  34. Wow, now I'm thinking you can't actually be this thick and are actually doing it on purpose... oh no I'm flip-flopping!

    His statement was about a stepback in interactivity within the LG15.com site, which obviously includes any and all pages where such features might get implemented, and not any particular present or future page. Why is such a simple concept so tough for you to grasp?

  35. Because I have an am actually administrating a web server, and know that it's entirely possible to leave the lonelygirl15, katemodern and lgpedia folders standing as is, while totally revamping the lg15.com root folder.

    Why is it so hard to grasp for you that different folders are different folders, and no statement was made about the future of the lonelygirl15 folder?

  36. I would say that most of us consider the main page of the web site to be the comments page for the Lonelygirl15 series. Does anyone actually ever use LG15.com? I did not think so. Now each time the Cs have started a new series they have added a new "main page" for that specific series. Given that Lonelygirl15 is ending and KM is already gone it does not take a giant leep in logic to conclude that without the relaunch the main page would have become the main page for the new series and replace Lonelygirl15 as the main page. Without the relaunch it is also reasonable to assume that the new main page would look like the older pages for Lonelygirl15 and KM.

    Now given that there is going to be a relaunch all bets are off so we really cannot say what the URL for the main page will be. All we can say is that Eqal has suggested that there will be one or more series so it would not surprise me if they keep LG15 as a portal page that no one ever uses.

  37. Just to reiterate, maybe the emphasis gets the point through your head:

    I said:
    [Apo's] "statement was about a stepback in interactivity within the LG15.com site"

    Just in case you insist on putting words in Apo's mouth. It was you who implied that Apo was talking about specific pages within the site.

    You said:
    "he can't distinguish lg15.com from lg15.com/lonelygirl15."

  38. Are you guys serious? Jesus, we just heard about this yesterday, calm the hell down.

  39. Just to reiterate, maybe the emphasis gets the point through your head:

    Apo said:
    "This is a statement that they will no longer allow fan submitted videos on the main page at LG15 after this 'relaunch.'"

    Apo did talk about specific pages within the site, whether you like it or not.

  40. I think we should storm the building and take a look at the alpha site so we have something to really get our teeth into. Who is with me?

  41. Again the main page has always been considered by users to be the comments page for Lonelygirl15. I would assume that would move to the new series. I hope they are not gonna kill our beloved comments. Sigh.

  42. Model, that is exactly my point - people generally consider the main page the lonelygirl15 page.

    But the Creators make no statement what is about to happen to that specific part - they are just talking about "lg15.com" in general. As such, the claim that they are specifically stating, either directly or indirectly, that the lonelygirl15 site or its successor will not have video submission functionality, is simply wrong. And that false claim is on the front page of your blog.

    (And even if he means the lg15.com root site, not the lonelygirl15 one, his statement is false because he says "no longer", and lg15.com never accepted submissions in the first place - one way or another, the statement is wrong.)

  43. Well clearly the Cs will now think twice about omitting said UGC features from the new series page. It seems pretty clear from the passion in this discussion that such an omission would go over like a lead brick. Do they really want such a reaction to their shiny site. I would hope not.

  44. Silly semantics aside, I have long been under the impression that the Creators want fans to be actively involved in the lonelygirl15 story, with various modes of interaction including fan response videos and stories, comments, chats, InsideLG15, forums, online radio shows, live events, etc. but what they have planned and actually implemented for their website has evolved over time, in part due to resources, legal issues, and changing priorities. Certainly their vision has exceeded their deliverables at times - that's not so surprising.

    It seems to me as if this new reworking of the lg15 site to be a "full-functioning social network" is the next step in that process - and the first product of the new EQAL organization. They look to be putting in some infrastructure, a platform, on which they can present shows, and encourage community involvement.

    The announced 'beta' period, it seems to me, is an opportunity for fans to influence the implementation, and help set priorities and suggest details for future functionality. Offhand, I would think a general issue of interest to UGC producers would be opportunities to attract attention to their work in the context of the LG15 story videos. I'm not entire sure how I feel about a "voting" process - that could have a negative impact on newer contributors. But support for UGC story presentation on LG15.com sounds good to me - customizable user pages of some sort, perhaps with the idea that exceptional UGC will draw fans through word of mouth (comments, forums postings, blogs, chat, etc.)

    But honestly, if someone has a story they want to tell, the tools are available now on the internet - no need to wait for LG15.com to implement something.

  45. Actually modelmotion, my passion is not about what the LG15 team does with their site, I really don't care. My passion is about someone trying to censor Apo's justified suspicions simply because the press release doesn't specifically state what Apo read in it from his long experience of letdowns.

    The semantic discussion about which is the main page is an obvious straw-man argument by renegade. He's pretending to take for granted that the press release only refers to the lg15.com root page and not the whole lg15.com site, which is clearly not how Apo read it, or how anyone with just a little common sense would.

    That's where my passion's coming from, to defend Apo's right to post his justified interpretation. That, and to question the idiocy of saying "promises don't count in software development, look at Windows."

    Now that I've made my points, I'll leave you all to discuss what's best for the LG15 community.

  46. So much for putting words in other people's mouths...>_>

    Let me quote Inside LG15 from just now:
    "Finally, the heart and soul of the LG15 Universe is www.LG15.com and will remain so with the new website. The LGPedia, forum, Community videos, and InsideLG15 will all continue to be a part of the site."
    ...how often do they have to repeat "lg15.com" instead of "lg15.com/lonelygirl15" until you get they're talking about the central site, not the soon-to-be-obsolete lonelygirl15 sub-site?

    Just because you would like it to be a straw man, it doesn't automatically turn into one. It's not my fault you're having problems distinguishing two URLs.

    Likewise, you're the only one who even thinks there are promises being made in software development. Since we don't think there are any, we never argued they don't count.

  47. For the past 2 years the UGC creators have talked about what they want. If Eqal does not get it by now they are brain dead. No more talking. It is time for Eqal to lay down its hand and show us what they have been up to. The time to fix something is before you screw it up.

  48. i can't bear to read 50 comments, but let me comment on my friends apo and renegade. apo is free to extrapolate, and renegade is free to only proceed on 100% proven facts.

    whether apo is right or wrong cannot be proven. but he doesn't shoot from the hip. time shall tell.

  49. I would normally drop my problem when milowent chimes in to say time will tell. He does reign in those of us who get upset enough to publicly denounce the C's bad moves when it is unwarranted.

    But I am on the tip of my iceberg here.


    Take a look at point number two, Renegade. Part of it reads:

    "We are very interested in seeing more fan shows and will promote them on our website in a variety of ways."

    A single strip of UGC vids on the Comments page hardly meets the expectation one would think such a statement would generate.

    To be fair, the C's have attempted to support some UGC on their heavily moderated blog.

    But I won't go there to add my concerns. I learned a long time ago to air my issues at sites they do not control.

  50. Both sides have given valid points to support their view.
    Milowent is right, only time will tell. So let us wait until august when the beta is rolled out to see what happens.

  51. @Apo:
    "A single strip of UGC vids on the Comments page hardly meets the expectation one would think such a statement would generate."

    How about...
    "The new user profile now looks a lot like the homepage of lonelygirl15! When you create a user account on LG15 you can enter your YouTube username (you can also click "Edit Profile" to do this). This will automatically pull in videos from your YouTube account and feature the most recent video on your user profile alongside a widget to scroll to past videos. So... if you want to create a "show," just create an account on YouTube that you will upload all the videos to and then create a new account on LG15 (e.g. "Battlestar"). You can then email this link around to your friends or share it on the site."

    Or the community appreciation week, where UGC material was shown directly on the lonelygirl15 main page?

    Yes, he speaks in future tense - but that is obviously a closing statement to a paragraph of "look what we've done for you", not a promise. This is not an opening statement to the glorious future of UGC, this is a closing statement to work that has been done - reassurance that stuff will happen. A general statement for the future - not a promise.

    Besides, even if it was a promise, it'd still not define the way in which said promotion happens - as such, you can still not prove any specific site features were promised by the Creators, and, as such, you can still not prove any promises were broken.

  52. Renegade, it is a simple matter to prove that the C's encourage fan involvement, and then later renege.

    One need only go back to their T-shirt design contest. I have a paypal account, and I'm standing by to buy one.

    Let me know when they are ready. I can tell you watch the phorum with rapt attention, and you won't hesitate to let me know.

  53. I don't have the time or energy to argue semantics but I do see Apo's overall point: The c's should be very careful not to promise the phans things that they either can't or won't deliver on.

    That's simply good business acumen. End of story. Treat your consumers with care. The phans here are very passionate and deserve to be treated with honesty and respect.

    This whole experience to date has been a learning curve for the c's and I hope that this is just one more element of that curve.

    I'm still waiting for the "Buy this Song" shiny button, but as most know I am the eternal optimist :)

  54. Wow, that's a lot of comments.

    One can only look at this thread: http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/forum/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=12687&st=0&sk=t&sd=a#p465672 to see how the Cs have handled UGC. Between the blog and that thread, there were many concerns raised over the TOS, and the Cs to my knowledge never addressed any of them. They basically said here's how its going to be, when there were alternatives out there.

    Arguing semantics won't change the things I have heard in the community over the past year that the Cs generally don't support UGC. It won't change the perception.

    Maybe these concerns will finally be addressed now. Jeromy brings up great concerns in the thread I posted, what if some of the elements of Maddison Atkins had been posted one day or one week after the plot points of KM were revealed? These concerns were never addressed!

    And a C promise to never sue isn't good enough. Its not guaranteed that the Cs will own lonelygirl15 forever. If tomorrow they announce that someone offered them money they couldn't refuse, and they sell to someone, anyone, and their are new people making the decisions, can you really be sure? And, saying you have no intention to ever sue doesn't mean you won't.

    I'm happy with the little things the Cs have done, but as someone who does his best to support the Community videos, the Cs really have a very long, long way to go. Perhaps the new site elements will support it.

    Renegade, I must say your thoughts have been entertaining. As the arguments and thoughts changed around you, it was fun to watch you go "But apo did/didn't say that in his original statement". Apo's statement comes from how he read what the Cs wrote based on his experience with the Cs handling of the UGC in this community. He's dead on. We can argue semantics for fun, but it isn't going to change perception, and it isn't going to change how some UGC content creators have felt about this for quite a while now.

  55. all I hear is, "nag nag nag nag nag nag nag nag nag nag - - - BITCH! BITCH! BITCH!"

  56. Virginian, I don't think you see my point:
    a) I don't care for the changed arguments around me, until they magically manage to spin what Apo said into something fitting to the quote he provided. I don't care for how bad the Cs are with UGC in general, I don't care if that is his interpretation, I don't care if you agree with his point of view - his statements and allegations are factually incorrect and unproven.
    I am not arguing about whether or not the Creators are bad with UGC in general. I don't give a fuck if they are. I am arguing about the fact that Apo provided a quote, and then falsely stated that quote said something entirely different - and that that statement then ended up on the front page of LG15 Today. I am arguing about the fact that he claims there are promises broken, yet, amazingly, after almost 60 posts, none of your side could provide a link to an actual, direct promise for the site's features.
    I don't care about the motivations behind his interpretation, and I don't care how many people share his general opinion about the Creators and UGC. I care about the fact that that specific statement is blatantly, openly, obviously factually incorrect, and has still not been taken down.

    b) It's not a question about semantics. To say this is about semantics is the same as saying Google Image Search is the same as Google Search, because Google Image Search is also a search engine product provided by Google. It's bullshit. If they make general statements about A, you cannot go out and pretend they made specific statements about B. I mean, look at it:
    Paraphrased, Inside said: "In the future, you can have videos on your profile pages on lg15.com."
    Apo claims this equals: "The lonelygirl15 main page will not have fan video submissions anymore."
    How the hell can you honestly try to pretend this is anything but a big, giant difference?

  57. Clearly LG15.com is private property owned by Eqal and as such they can do what they want. We totally respect their right to do what they want with their site. That said there was a massive comments boycott to try and get changes. Very few if any changes were made in response to that and as a result a lot of people left LG15.com. If the Cs want community video on the site they will not only have to talk the talk. They need to walk the walk. As I said I totally respect their right to screw up again if they choose to do so. I just would prefer that they don't. Time will tell.

    One thing that is clear is that after the last design change community videos took a massive hit in terms of views. Design does matter.

  58. 1. I do not use the lg15 portal page.

    2. If necessary and to help zoey sometimes, I have the lgpedia on bookmark to take me directly there. Honestly I would wish Zoey too that entire work that SHE did and put it on a site seperate to the creator's site becuase she does some very time consuming shit... and I'm more than sure she doesn't get much thanks from the creators.. nor paid.

    3. I hate the lg15.com forums.

    4. I hate their chat system they use during events. (IRC FOR LIFE)

    5. I prefer lg15today to keep up with everything. It's like a one stop shop for ARGs or storylines...

    also... all of you are wrong and I'm right because I said so. :p

    meanwhile... if you have your own site set up for your personal arg or whatever... what does it matter? And should LG15 turn out that they shy away from their promises... perhaps a better solution to this issue is to gather our community together to make an ARG community site of our own.

    If you don't like it, you got to do it yourself!

  59. Hey everyone, first thanks for your passion. Even though it's hard reading through this stuff, I appreciate that you care so much about this show and this community.

    I read through these comments and want to make a few things clear because I think there are some misunderstandings:

    1) The whole point of our company EQAL is to create interactive shows where the community members are "equal" to the characters. The most important thing to us is the interaction between the characters, the show, the community members, and the community videos. This has been a part of lonelygirl15 and KateModern for 2 years now and will not go away. From featuring community members in videos and highlighting discussion across the site, to displaying community shows on the main show page, etc., this is part of the LG15 DNA. For us, this is VERY IMPORTANT.

    2) Building a social network is hard. Really hard. We are FINALLY able to do it because we raised financing, and there is NO ONE as upset as I am that it took this long. Yes, I know we have talked about "making the site better" for over a year. Well, now we are finally doing it. We WILL NOT have all the features that I know we both want upon launch, but WE WILL be constantly listening to your feedback and adding features on a regular basis.

    3) We are focusing on launching with functionality for us to tell a story (main page video posting, etc.), and for discussion. This is the heart of LG15. The show we produce and your comments and discussion on the main page, in the forum, and in chat. All this will be preserved, and IMPROVED. Additionally we will have standard social network features to allow you to form an even stronger community (profile pages, photo uploads, etc.).

    I hope this clears up some questions.

    Broken Kid is working with Amanda to find a time for a live chat so that we can answer specific questions about the site redesign and continue to clarify things. Thanks.

  60. Independent from the fact that that doesn't change that Apo's statement is incorrect...does this mean we are to assume that the current format of having a sub-site of lg15.com as the main page for future series will stay, and that that site will, as Apo interpreted, not include the functionality to submit video responses?

    (Besides: No. Coding a social network software from ground up might be hard. Simply installing one is not. And definitely doesn't require funding.)


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